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WD-40 Samba Member
Joined: May 31, 2006 Posts: 1178 Location: Iowa
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Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:17 pm Post subject: Re: need anyone's help on cooling idea |
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I have a couple thoughts, maybe it will help...
First, I'll second the idea of a remote oil cooler. Flexible placement + bigger surface area + larger oil quantity are all good things.
Second, since head cooling is the most critical problem, have you considered liquid-cooled heads? There have been both production heads (aviation-focused) as well as converted air-cooled heads made by several folks over the years, so there is a reasonable amount of information out there on using water-cooled heads on air-cooled engines.
Third, and I may catch flak for this - I would take the prior discussions on electric cooling with a large grain of salt. Many people have calculated the pressure and air volume of the factory belt-driven fan with the engine at speed/load, and simply worked backwards from that to determine the "required" equivalent power for electric fans to match, and consequently proclaimed it unworkable.
You, however, have a different car and a different set of needs. To start off, you can deduct the amount of air that the factory fan allocates and bleeds off continuously through the heater boxes for interior heat. You also have an open car with many more options for scoops and ducts to collect and direct air while the car is in motion, reducing the amount of electric air required at times the engine is under load. So really, you don't need the electric fans to provide anywhere near that calculated peak volume/pressure... just an electric cooling "assist" to provide the lesser amount required to keep the engine temps in check while stationary.
I also don't believe an "energy debt" is a deal breaker. Say it truly does take more electricity to cool things than the engine makes. So what? Toss in a secondary deep-cycle battery or two to draw from when necessary, and either charge them when at speed (when there is an energy surplus), or plug in at home at the end of the day. Problem solved, not a big deal.
Lastly, you have plenty of options to get creative. Drop the bore size and run thick-wall cylinders with more fin surface area. Decouple or disconnect the generator/alternator when idling to reduce the engine load when full cooling isn't available. Tweak the compression ratio and drop the engine power output to reduce the heat load. Re-route the exhaust so it doesn't hold heat near the heads. Blow air from the bottom up to leverage convection. Pull the rockers on two cylinders and swap a smaller carb on the manifold to convert the engine into a stealthy two-cylinder. Or heck, you could even install a water tank in the car and using fine misting nozzles to atomize small amounts of water vapor into the cooling air to increase its heat transfer and heat carrying capacity.
Think outside the envelope, come up with some ideas, put some thermocouples on key places, and experiment. _________________ "The new Volkswagen 1303. We've made so many improvements, they're beginning to show." |
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vwjetboat Samba Member
Joined: May 11, 2017 Posts: 1732 Location: Florida
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Posted: Fri May 25, 2018 7:00 am Post subject: Re: need anyone's help on cooling idea |
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have to follow along on this.. love the look.. |
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vwuberalles Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2003 Posts: 1353 Location: Richmond, VA
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Posted: Fri May 25, 2018 6:40 am Post subject: Re: need anyone's help on cooling idea |
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nshaddox wrote: |
there was a T bucket at autorama this year in detroit that had all the normal FEAD stuff driven off of a line shaft that ran between the frame rails. Alternator, power steering pump, AC, etc. Got me thinking that maybe you could set up a line shaft running under either cyl bank 1-2 or 3-4, going back to somewhere far enough up front on the frame where you could then run a belt to the normal T1 alternator/fan set up and just do some custom fab work to make a shroud that would dump into something like the pics above show. it makes sense in my head, hopefully it makes sense here too. then maybe you could do some renault dauphine style side scoops to feed air into the quarter panels. that would look pretty cool. |
Toyota Previas have a similar setup. The engine is an inline 4 cylinder laying on it's side under the front seats, but it has a driveshaft coming off the front of the engine to drive the alternator, AC compressor, water pump, etc, which is all under the front hood. The shaft even drives a supercharger on some models! _________________ 1973 Superbeetle: 1st car, owned since age 12. Update thread --> https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9919140#9919140
1967 Kombi: Owned since age 17, Dad's retirement project.
1966 Beetle: My new project. (SOLD) Build thread--> https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=678040 |
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nshaddox Samba Member
Joined: January 18, 2005 Posts: 611 Location: Hammatramma, MI
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Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 12:00 pm Post subject: Re: need anyone's help on cooling idea |
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there was a T bucket at autorama this year in detroit that had all the normal FEAD stuff driven off of a line shaft that ran between the frame rails. Alternator, power steering pump, AC, etc. Got me thinking that maybe you could set up a line shaft running under either cyl bank 1-2 or 3-4, going back to somewhere far enough up front on the frame where you could then run a belt to the normal T1 alternator/fan set up and just do some custom fab work to make a shroud that would dump into something like the pics above show. it makes sense in my head, hopefully it makes sense here too. then maybe you could do some renault dauphine style side scoops to feed air into the quarter panels. that would look pretty cool. |
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EverettB Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000 Posts: 69697 Location: Phoenix Metro
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vaughn bros. Samba Member
Joined: October 13, 2003 Posts: 2395 Location: Hickory, NC
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Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 8:06 am Post subject: Re: need anyone's help on cooling idea |
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I'm with you too. It looks like a work in progress. I'm looking forward to more myself.😀 |
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VOLKSWAGNUT Fastest VW Belt Changer
Joined: October 14, 2007 Posts: 11052 Location: Flippin' a Belt........ .... Off-n-On ... NC USA
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Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:27 am Post subject: Re: need anyone's help on cooling idea |
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^ Am I missing how that would cool
Maybe is a work in plumbing progress.
. _________________ aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
Search "VOLKSWAGNUT" on YouTube since you cant watch a "certain" BELT change video round here
Usually and often edited |
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vaughn bros. Samba Member
Joined: October 13, 2003 Posts: 2395 Location: Hickory, NC
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Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 6:41 am Post subject: Re: need anyone's help on cooling idea |
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From Facebook.
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eyetzr Samba Member
Joined: October 09, 2013 Posts: 1423 Location: Toronto, Ontario. Canada
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Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:34 pm Post subject: Re: need anyone's help on cooling idea |
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This may be a bit shiny for you, but.... _________________ I think he meant "rare", as in "not well-done" |
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Petfisheric Samba Member
Joined: November 27, 2014 Posts: 121 Location: Knoxville, TN
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Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:04 pm Post subject: Re: need anyone's help on cooling idea |
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The Fittipaldi setup had the windshield canted back to make a ram air setup forcing the air through the ducting while moving. I have seen some corvair systems for type1 motors here is a link. https://www.speedsterowners.com/topic/std-vw-cooli...5770318909 |
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Jacks Samba Member
Joined: July 15, 2006 Posts: 2344 Location: San Clemente, Ca.
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eyetzr Samba Member
Joined: October 09, 2013 Posts: 1423 Location: Toronto, Ontario. Canada
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Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:02 am Post subject: Re: need anyone's help on cooling idea |
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Google Emerson Fittipaldi's double engine beetle.
Mid engine set up, but I think the routing of the air into the engine is an interesting thought. It used to push so much air in the car the top of the doors would start to open up.
_________________ I think he meant "rare", as in "not well-done" |
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andk5591 Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2005 Posts: 16753 Location: State College, PA
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Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:11 pm Post subject: Re: need anyone's help on cooling idea |
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Problem with naca ducts is not knowing how the air is actually going to flow...Placement is real important and I know enough about this kind of thing to realize that I don't know much at all.... _________________ D-Dubya Manx clone - 63 Short pan,1914.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Cindy's daily driver.
Max - 73 standard Beetle hearse project - For sale
66 bug project - Real patina & Suby conversion
There's more, but not keeping them... |
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dcavy Samba Member
Joined: November 14, 2013 Posts: 15 Location: oswego il
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Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:59 pm Post subject: Re: need anyone's help on cooling idea |
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When this project started I wanted to go more into the direction of a motorcycle engine in the front and run a rear wheel drive set up but didn’t have the knowledge, resources, or the finances to build an all out tube chassis. I’ve seen many do the s-10 conversion but everything to me is so bulky then your crammed into the rear of the car just to sit. My other option idea was I saw someone used a v twin before but never could find the resource for an adaptor plate. Don’t know if it would have the same cooling issues considering it has air passing around it with no fans at all. I guess my big concern is the heating up at a traffic light. I’ve also brainstormed on one of the ideas mentioned earlier that I could blow 2 600 cfm 8” fans over the top of the motor in a custom panel like parcel tray blowing down on the heads and I already have a remote cooler on order. As far as airflow While moving I was thinking naca ducts in the side windows to deliver fresh air in. Any thoughts? |
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eyetzr Samba Member
Joined: October 09, 2013 Posts: 1423 Location: Toronto, Ontario. Canada
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Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:44 am Post subject: Re: need anyone's help on cooling idea |
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Something like this _________________ I think he meant "rare", as in "not well-done" |
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Bashr52 Samba Member
Joined: July 16, 2006 Posts: 5666 Location: On an island in VA
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Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:58 am Post subject: Re: need anyone's help on cooling idea |
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Do a search in the performance section on electric cooling, it's been covered MANY times. The power required to run the fans the size you need is more than the engine can produce. Drag cars run squirrel fans on top of the cylinders to run between runs down the track, but they are not enough to run at all times.
What about a subie conversion? |
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eyetzr Samba Member
Joined: October 09, 2013 Posts: 1423 Location: Toronto, Ontario. Canada
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Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:35 am Post subject: Re: need anyone's help on cooling idea |
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I remember seeing a kit car of sorts with 2 squirrel cage fans on top of the factory VW tins. They had some ducting running under the car. Not sure on the operation, but that may work. _________________ I think he meant "rare", as in "not well-done" |
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andk5591 Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2005 Posts: 16753 Location: State College, PA
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Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:35 pm Post subject: Re: need anyone's help on cooling idea |
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I think there is data on here as far as CFMs a stock fan puts out. Was a pretty large number. Found it - Rob and Daves
Note: Air flow for the non-doghouse 1300/1500/1600cc engines is 20 cubic feet per second at 4000 rpm. The doghouse cooling fan is wider and blows around 25cf/sec @ 4000rpm, which is why cars with this cooling set-up NEED a slotted engine lid - the slots under the rear window are simply not large enough to provide the doghouse fan running with enough air at higher speeds.
So - looking at 1200 CFM....AND there is a little more to it because of the load. And there are pusher and puller type fans. Probably need at least a 10" or maybe a pair of 8 or 9". Assuming you took care of oil coiling separately, it would not be that difficult as long as you used stock cylinder tins. You just need to fab ductwork to give a nice transition from the fans (I would try to do 2 smaller ones) into the top of the cylinder tins. Why not.....
But pancake coolling with the extra ports for cabin heat cut off could be kind of cool and put a fan guard over the fan and paint the fan black. You will loose the jet engine effect. _________________ D-Dubya Manx clone - 63 Short pan,1914.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Cindy's daily driver.
Max - 73 standard Beetle hearse project - For sale
66 bug project - Real patina & Suby conversion
There's more, but not keeping them... |
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dcavy Samba Member
Joined: November 14, 2013 Posts: 15 Location: oswego il
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Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:22 am Post subject: Re: need anyone's help on cooling idea |
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I would have no problem using small fans with ducting but I believe they cannot support the cfm air volume to cool the heads when at a traffic light but if someone has has success please let me know. |
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dcavy Samba Member
Joined: November 14, 2013 Posts: 15 Location: oswego il
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Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:19 am Post subject: Re: need anyone's help on cooling idea |
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I had tried the type 3 cooling fan set up but it looked more like I strapped a jet onto the back. |
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