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need anyone's help on cooling idea
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WD-40
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:17 pm    Post subject: Re: need anyone's help on cooling idea Reply with quote

I have a couple thoughts, maybe it will help... Question

First, I'll second the idea of a remote oil cooler. Flexible placement + bigger surface area + larger oil quantity are all good things.

Second, since head cooling is the most critical problem, have you considered liquid-cooled heads? Question There have been both production heads (aviation-focused) as well as converted air-cooled heads made by several folks over the years, so there is a reasonable amount of information out there on using water-cooled heads on air-cooled engines.

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Third, and I may catch flak for this - I would take the prior discussions on electric cooling with a large grain of salt. Wink Many people have calculated the pressure and air volume of the factory belt-driven fan with the engine at speed/load, and simply worked backwards from that to determine the "required" equivalent power for electric fans to match, and consequently proclaimed it unworkable.

You, however, have a different car and a different set of needs. To start off, you can deduct the amount of air that the factory fan allocates and bleeds off continuously through the heater boxes for interior heat. You also have an open car with many more options for scoops and ducts to collect and direct air while the car is in motion, reducing the amount of electric air required at times the engine is under load. So really, you don't need the electric fans to provide anywhere near that calculated peak volume/pressure... just an electric cooling "assist" to provide the lesser amount required to keep the engine temps in check while stationary. Cool

I also don't believe an "energy debt" is a deal breaker. Say it truly does take more electricity to cool things than the engine makes. So what? Toss in a secondary deep-cycle battery or two to draw from when necessary, and either charge them when at speed (when there is an energy surplus), or plug in at home at the end of the day. Problem solved, not a big deal.


Lastly, you have plenty of options to get creative. Drop the bore size and run thick-wall cylinders with more fin surface area. Decouple or disconnect the generator/alternator when idling to reduce the engine load when full cooling isn't available. Tweak the compression ratio and drop the engine power output to reduce the heat load. Re-route the exhaust so it doesn't hold heat near the heads. Blow air from the bottom up to leverage convection. Pull the rockers on two cylinders and swap a smaller carb on the manifold to convert the engine into a stealthy two-cylinder. Or heck, you could even install a water tank in the car and using fine misting nozzles to atomize small amounts of water vapor into the cooling air to increase its heat transfer and heat carrying capacity.


Think outside the envelope, come up with some ideas, put some thermocouples on key places, and experiment. Cool
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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 7:00 am    Post subject: Re: need anyone's help on cooling idea Reply with quote

have to follow along on this.. love the look..
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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 6:40 am    Post subject: Re: need anyone's help on cooling idea Reply with quote

nshaddox wrote:
there was a T bucket at autorama this year in detroit that had all the normal FEAD stuff driven off of a line shaft that ran between the frame rails. Alternator, power steering pump, AC, etc. Got me thinking that maybe you could set up a line shaft running under either cyl bank 1-2 or 3-4, going back to somewhere far enough up front on the frame where you could then run a belt to the normal T1 alternator/fan set up and just do some custom fab work to make a shroud that would dump into something like the pics above show. it makes sense in my head, hopefully it makes sense here too. then maybe you could do some renault dauphine style side scoops to feed air into the quarter panels. that would look pretty cool.


Toyota Previas have a similar setup. The engine is an inline 4 cylinder laying on it's side under the front seats, but it has a driveshaft coming off the front of the engine to drive the alternator, AC compressor, water pump, etc, which is all under the front hood. The shaft even drives a supercharger on some models!
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 12:00 pm    Post subject: Re: need anyone's help on cooling idea Reply with quote

there was a T bucket at autorama this year in detroit that had all the normal FEAD stuff driven off of a line shaft that ran between the frame rails. Alternator, power steering pump, AC, etc. Got me thinking that maybe you could set up a line shaft running under either cyl bank 1-2 or 3-4, going back to somewhere far enough up front on the frame where you could then run a belt to the normal T1 alternator/fan set up and just do some custom fab work to make a shroud that would dump into something like the pics above show. it makes sense in my head, hopefully it makes sense here too. then maybe you could do some renault dauphine style side scoops to feed air into the quarter panels. that would look pretty cool.
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 10:18 am    Post subject: Re: need anyone's help on cooling idea Reply with quote

It took me a second to realize the top of that "shroud" was still open so I'd say they are mocking something up.
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vaughn bros.
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 8:06 am    Post subject: Re: need anyone's help on cooling idea Reply with quote

I'm with you too. It looks like a work in progress. I'm looking forward to more myself.😀
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:27 am    Post subject: Re: need anyone's help on cooling idea Reply with quote

vaughn bros. wrote:
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^ Am I missing how that would cool Anxious

Maybe is a work in plumbing progress. Laughing


.
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vaughn bros.
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 6:41 am    Post subject: Re: need anyone's help on cooling idea Reply with quote

From Facebook.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:34 pm    Post subject: Re: need anyone's help on cooling idea Reply with quote

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This may be a bit shiny for you, but....
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I think he meant "rare", as in "not well-done"
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:04 pm    Post subject: Re: need anyone's help on cooling idea Reply with quote

The Fittipaldi setup had the windshield canted back to make a ram air setup forcing the air through the ducting while moving. I have seen some corvair systems for type1 motors here is a link. https://www.speedsterowners.com/topic/std-vw-cooli...5770318909
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:27 am    Post subject: Re: need anyone's help on cooling idea Reply with quote

How about a Puma fan shroud? Several inches lower than type 1 Idea
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:02 am    Post subject: Re: need anyone's help on cooling idea Reply with quote

Google Emerson Fittipaldi's double engine beetle.
Mid engine set up, but I think the routing of the air into the engine is an interesting thought. It used to push so much air in the car the top of the doors would start to open up.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:11 pm    Post subject: Re: need anyone's help on cooling idea Reply with quote

Problem with naca ducts is not knowing how the air is actually going to flow...Placement is real important and I know enough about this kind of thing to realize that I don't know much at all.... Confused
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:59 pm    Post subject: Re: need anyone's help on cooling idea Reply with quote

When this project started I wanted to go more into the direction of a motorcycle engine in the front and run a rear wheel drive set up but didn’t have the knowledge, resources, or the finances to build an all out tube chassis. I’ve seen many do the s-10 conversion but everything to me is so bulky then your crammed into the rear of the car just to sit. My other option idea was I saw someone used a v twin before but never could find the resource for an adaptor plate. Don’t know if it would have the same cooling issues considering it has air passing around it with no fans at all. I guess my big concern is the heating up at a traffic light. I’ve also brainstormed on one of the ideas mentioned earlier that I could blow 2 600 cfm 8” fans over the top of the motor in a custom panel like parcel tray blowing down on the heads and I already have a remote cooler on order. As far as airflow While moving I was thinking naca ducts in the side windows to deliver fresh air in. Any thoughts?
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:44 am    Post subject: Re: need anyone's help on cooling idea Reply with quote

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Something like this
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:58 am    Post subject: Re: need anyone's help on cooling idea Reply with quote

Do a search in the performance section on electric cooling, it's been covered MANY times. The power required to run the fans the size you need is more than the engine can produce. Drag cars run squirrel fans on top of the cylinders to run between runs down the track, but they are not enough to run at all times.

What about a subie conversion?
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:35 am    Post subject: Re: need anyone's help on cooling idea Reply with quote

I remember seeing a kit car of sorts with 2 squirrel cage fans on top of the factory VW tins. They had some ducting running under the car. Not sure on the operation, but that may work.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:35 pm    Post subject: Re: need anyone's help on cooling idea Reply with quote

I think there is data on here as far as CFMs a stock fan puts out. Was a pretty large number. Found it - Rob and Daves

Note: Air flow for the non-doghouse 1300/1500/1600cc engines is 20 cubic feet per second at 4000 rpm. The doghouse cooling fan is wider and blows around 25cf/sec @ 4000rpm, which is why cars with this cooling set-up NEED a slotted engine lid - the slots under the rear window are simply not large enough to provide the doghouse fan running with enough air at higher speeds.


So - looking at 1200 CFM....AND there is a little more to it because of the load. And there are pusher and puller type fans. Probably need at least a 10" or maybe a pair of 8 or 9". Assuming you took care of oil coiling separately, it would not be that difficult as long as you used stock cylinder tins. You just need to fab ductwork to give a nice transition from the fans (I would try to do 2 smaller ones) into the top of the cylinder tins. Why not.....

But pancake coolling with the extra ports for cabin heat cut off could be kind of cool and put a fan guard over the fan and paint the fan black. You will loose the jet engine effect.
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dcavy
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:22 am    Post subject: Re: need anyone's help on cooling idea Reply with quote

I would have no problem using small fans with ducting but I believe they cannot support the cfm air volume to cool the heads when at a traffic light but if someone has has success please let me know.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:19 am    Post subject: Re: need anyone's help on cooling idea Reply with quote

I had tried the type 3 cooling fan set up but it looked more like I strapped a jet onto the back.
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