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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
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 Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:49 pm Post subject: Type 4 cooling fan air flow, missing blades |
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There is a Type 4 fan thread going on, but since this is a bit different, I thought I would start a new thread. I know that a lot of these engines are running fans with a blade or three missing and I was wondering if there was any loss of flow as a result. I have also wondered what would happen if every other blade was removed, if there might not actually be more flow at higher RPM's as there would be a larger cross section for the air to pass through.
If someone has access to a dyno this might be a fun project. |
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Spike0180
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Location: Detroit, Michigan
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:13 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 cooling fan air flow, missing blades |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
There is a Type 4 fan thread going on, but since this is a bit different, I thought I would start a new thread. I know that a lot of these engines are running fans with a blade or three missing and I was wondering if there was any loss of flow as a result. I have also wondered what would happen if every other blade was removed, if there might not actually be more flow at higher RPM's as there would be a larger cross section for the air to pass through.
If someone has access to a dyno this might be a fun project. |
You could probably research fan design, and find this answer. Look outside of acvw and go to fan design, or maybe even turbine design might apply.
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Lil Lulu
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:32 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 cooling fan air flow, missing blades |
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I lost a large ground clip from my old Sears timing light into the fan once ( I don’t run a basket) and lost 3 blades and didn’t notice much difference in flow but it sure fucked up the balance. Fortunately I sent it back to Jake and he was nice enough to send me one that was balanced to my CS. He still had the numbers stored from my build.
I suppose removing every other blade would lighten the fan as well. One might need to alter other balance elements in the engine to compensate.
Sounds like a job for one of our dynamics engineers.
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SGKent 
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Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:28 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 cooling fan air flow, missing blades |
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each blade is a small airplane wing. By removing blades you would remove drag but reduce airflow equal to the wings removed. I suspect that the curve and number of blades is designed for maximum airflow at the RPM range the engine normally runs at - much like a higher speed jet has shorter wings that a slow driven prop plane. The SR71 has much shorter wings than the U2 for example because it operates faster and higher.
One question which might be more effective is what does airflow speed do to cooling over the heads and fins - e.g., does laminar flow occur above a set point such that dead spots occur on the heads and fins. Modern computer analysis might be able to improve the fin design, and angle of attack both on the fan and the heads if you wanted to pay an engineering firm to do that. My 2 cents worth.
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airschooled
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raygreenwood
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Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:45 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 cooling fan air flow, missing blades |
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Beat me to it!
I have run fans with two blades missing exactly 180° ...carefully filed off an polished. It seemed to make no difference. I am sure I should have had it re-balanced....but I could not tell the difference. Still have that one somewhere. It may be interesting to have its balance checked.
It was the first fan I ever re-trued the pulley on and was done on the engine.
On another persons car....with two blades broken off in the center of two adjacent quadrants....and he was lucky they were the same blade in each quadrant.....we removed the other two blades at 180°.....same deal.....filed them down smooth like they were never there.
He got it rebalanced. I do not remember if it was off a little or a lot. It seemed to cool fine.....it was in a 411.
But....it definately had a different harmonic sound. Its amazing how much of the noise these engines make....is actually fan noise at high rpm. Ray |
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:13 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 cooling fan air flow, missing blades |
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| SGKent wrote: |
each blade is a small airplane wing. By removing blades you would remove drag but reduce airflow equal to the wings removed. I suspect that the curve and number of blades is designed for maximum airflow at the RPM range the engine normally runs at - much like a higher speed jet has shorter wings that a slow driven prop plane. The SR71 has much shorter wings than the U2 for example because it operates faster and higher.
One question which might be more effective is what does airflow speed do to cooling over the heads and fins - e.g., does laminar flow occur above a set point such that dead spots occur on the heads and fins. Modern computer analysis might be able to improve the fin design, and angle of attack both on the fan and the heads if you wanted to pay an engineering firm to do that. My 2 cents worth. |
Triplanes didn't stick around for long as they weren't the best as air speeds picked up, this was followed by the disappearance of biplanes in favor is single winged planes. I would really expect the air flow to increase at some rpm point when fewer vanes were used, but would be worried about having enough air flow at lower RPMs.
If the cross over point was at say 3000 rpm's then running a fan with fewer blades might be practical for highway use. |
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SGKent
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:40 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 cooling fan air flow, missing blades |
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how large is the fan? 7 inches? That is about 120 MPH on the outside of the blade at redline. 10 inch? That is about 160 MPH at the outside of the blade. At 2600 RPM the fan is turning somewhere around 60 - 70 MPH so I would think it needs all its blades for max flow. Good used ones are inexpensive. Why keep ones that are missing blades...
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raygreenwood
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:46 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 cooling fan air flow, missing blades |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| how large is the fan? 7 inches? That is about 120 MPH on the outside of the blade at redline. 10 inch? That is about 160 MPH at the outside of the blade. At 2600 RPM the fan is turning somewhere around 60 - 70 MPH so I would think it needs all its blades for max flow. Good used ones are inexpensive. Why keep ones that are missing blades... |
Because good used ones.....while they are inexpensive.......are finite. There are getting to be less everytime an engine is scrapped or someone breaks off a fin.
Its what i keep saying.....unless you know someone making these items aftermarket.... conserve and learn how to rebuild and conserve wherever you can.
I think the question this thread raises ....is really valid. If you have an otherwise good fan witj one broken blade....does it affect cooling and/or balance enough on a stock engine to warrant throwing it away? And....how far can you take this? How many missing fins is too many?
Wouldnt the answers to these questions be simpler and cheaper to find out NOW....when these fans are still relatively "plentiful"?
Also....by the way....these fan blades are NOT wings....and how they work bears only passing resemblance to how wings work.
The type 4 fan.....is a centrifugal fan. It's blades are not wing shaped....and are not wings. At best they can be described as stator blades.....at worst....they have "some" of the function of "strakes".
In a centrifugal fan like the type 4 fan which has forward facing blades.....the initial inlet air velocity is created by the air contacting the flat-ish floor of the fan (this is the impellor)....where it is slung outward via centrifugal force.
This air under pressure now.....is accelerated....by changing direction (angular motion assist) on mainly the underside of the fan blade....but also to a lesser extent the top side of the blade due to compression between the two surfaces.
The radius of the underside of the blade is greater than the top of the blade...... and therefore the acceleration rate change is greater.
While this seems similar to a wing..... A wing does not operate "exactly" like this. A wing operates by creating negative pressure beneath and positive pressure on top and redirecting airflow at the trailing edge. It works via pressure differential....not angular motion acceleration.
With a centrifugal fan like ours.....as rpm rises....and the initial velocity created by the floor/impellor section increases.....at some point the gap between the fins....becomes a choke point.....and drag increases. Drag increases not because of surface area drag(drag coefficient)......but because once the air pressure...and more importantly....air density.... between the fins reaches a point where its an equilibrium.....the static pressure within the enclosure of the fan ring increases to the point where it can impede inlet air flow.
This was the point that Jake and others were noting in those old threads on the STF.
In a theoretical world.....the perfect centrifugal fan....would be one where as rpm rises....fan blade spacing increases to keep the perfect velocity triangle.
I absolutely HATE to link and quote Wikipedia....but they have a pretty good write up of the centrifugal fan principles.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrifugal_fan
Ray |
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:11 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 cooling fan air flow, missing blades |
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By using a skip pattern one might also be able to quiet the fan a bit. Maybe something like this:
P-0-1-0-1-1-1-0-1-1-0-P
P=post
0=missing vein
1=intact vein
If you could come up with a pattern that would keep the fan in balance with each of the three segments have a different arrangement, that would likely be even better. |
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airschooled
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:20 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 cooling fan air flow, missing blades |
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It is also worth noting that VW magazines and online "experts" have said for decades that fans "cavitate" when spinning too fast. Cavitation is the formation of air bubbles in liquid, and since our fans (T1 and T4) are not underwater, there is no possible way for our fans to cavitate.
Yes, the stock number of fins can create drag above stock rod-snapping RPM, and a T1 belt can slip above 5,000 RPM with a stock cooling system…
…So why don't I design a "mechanical advance" fan that spreads its blades as the speed increases?
…Because I spend over 25 hours a year floored on the highway in my bus and have never had a cooling issue. 
Someone else can do that leg work. I'll be at the beach or in Death Valley or Maine or something.
Robbie
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SGKent
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:54 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 cooling fan air flow, missing blades |
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ray they are wings. The distance over the top is longer than the distance directly between the front and back on the underside. That creates low pressure over the vane.
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raygreenwood
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:38 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 cooling fan air flow, missing blades |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| ray they are wings. The distance over the top is longer than the distance directly between the front and back on the underside. That creates low pressure over the vane. |
No....they are "similar" in GEOMETRY to a wing......but are functioning in a totally different way.
Also...simply having the distance over the top greater than the distance over the bottom is not the ONLY denominator that makes a functional wing.
The common belief that a wing operates on the Bernoulli effect....is false. While there is plenty of Bernoulli effect at work.....its actual upward thrust/lift is negligible compared to steering the air that is compressed over the longer top wing surface...off the trailing edge and downward.
With thousands of wing cross sections registered at the NACA alone.....along with with zillions of papers and studies.....you should read some on what makes actual wing effect work.
These fan blades are not "wing" shaped. They do in fact have a lenticular shape. To be an actual wing.....they would need the top curved section.....the camber line....to be offset forward on the leading edge relative to some degree from the cord line.....the underside line or curve.
Also....carefully read about HOW the centrifugal fan works....and how the different blades work at different speed. Straight blades at 90°, forward and backward inclined straight blades and forward and backward inclined curved or angles blades....all function differently at different static pressures, speeds, air velocities and temperatures.
Ray |
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raygreenwood
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:49 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 cooling fan air flow, missing blades |
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| asiab3 wrote: |
It is also worth noting that VW magazines and online "experts" have said for decades that fans "cavitate" when spinning too fast. Cavitation is the formation of air bubbles in liquid, and since our fans (T1 and T4) are not underwater, there is no possible way for our fans to cavitate.
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They are correct in their terminology......and NO....cavitation is NOT JUST the formation of bubbles in liquid.
Cavitation takes different forms and has different effects in different media. It depends on the viscosity, tack level and sheer stress of the liquid or media its happening in.
For instance when pumping chemical pastes through feeder lines when the paste has a viscosity of somewhere around 1,000,000 centipoise (50 weight oil is about 10,000 cps)....cavitation caused by rapid turns or by an overspeeding impellor.....does not cause vapor seperation. The material is too dense and therefore the vapor pressure too high. What it causes is compression and a physical "lock up" of the paste into a virtual solid....working similar to what happens in a torque converter.
It manifests itself by the pressure going from what may be normal around 200 psi....to going to 1000 psi in a split second.....and exploding the pipe or mixing vessel.
When a fan cavitates.....and it depends on the fan.....it can happen by either heat expansion when the air at the fan outer edge goes supersonic......or when air between blades reaches a compression level where it upsets the boundary layer air on the blades....and starts going in the multiple directions (turbulence).
Both have the effect of locking up airflow....or stalling the air flow. Ray |
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SGKent
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:10 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 cooling fan air flow, missing blades |
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Ray I just read three papers on them to satisfy you. They are considered AIRFOILS (e.g WINGS). Worse, if one of the blades suffers a stall due to monkeying with it, damage, or being pushed to the limit, the stall often progresses to the next blade and next etc.w working its way around the fan.
My position is leave well enough alone. Nothing else to say. millions of these were made and some vendors still have them. They were available NEW from VW up until a few months ago.
Yes you can use shoelaces for a clutch cable to save money if it makes a person happy. Used cooking oil will work for many things too if there is no other oil around - especially if one is cooking 7-11 bean burritos on their engine. I've also heard that old tennis shoe soles can be glued to tires to get extra miles and traction.
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raygreenwood
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:22 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 cooling fan air flow, missing blades |
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| SGKent wrote: |
Ray I just read three papers on them to satisfy you. They are considered AIRFOILS (e.g WINGS). Worse, if one of the blades suffers a stall due to monkeying with it, damage, or being pushed to the limit, the stall often progresses to the next blade and next etc.w working its way around the fan.
My position is leave well enough alone. Nothing else to say. millions of these were made and some vendors still have them. They were available NEW from VW up until a few months ago.
This place really wears me out. Yes you can use shoelaces for a clutch cable to save money if it makes a person happy. Used cooking oil will work for many things too if there is no other oil around - especially if one is cooking 7-11 bean burritos on their engine. I've also heard that old tennis show soles can be glued to tires to get extra miles and traction. |
Hey man....not to put on my as*hole hat today....but it sounds like you have some kind of cumulative beef going on...  ...notice the wink?... ....not trying to twist your tail....really!
but....What does used cooking oil and shoelaces for belts have to do with this discussion? Just asking?
No one has suggested with the creation of this thread....to try to recycle "consumable parts"...like oil...belts...tires...spark plugs.
While I disagree with some things Wildthings says....I think he is spot on right here. Its a great question....when is a type 4 fan no longer usable or repairable? When does it create more problems than it solves when you rework one to get rid of minor damage?
Where are these endless piles of good usable fans you speak of?
Probably not a week goes by...and probably not more than a couple of days....where some unsuspecting bus, 411/412 or 914 owner....in this country alone...cracks off a fan blade either through abuse or accident.
So you are suggesting...it seems...that all of those should be just discarded?...and a fresh used one taken from the endless tree of type 4 fans growing in the desert?
My earlier question still remains on the table.....is anyone stepping up to the plate to cast NEW type 4 fans? Until that happens....learn something new...and conserve if you can.
So you read three papers?....Good for you!....just three papers? Sorry...you need to read some more.
And...maybe try spec'ing and installing fans in industrial equipment for a few decades. There is more to this than just what it appears visually.
I will not claim to know everything about fans....but I know enough to know that what you are claiming of how our fan blades ACTUALLY work...is not correct.
Being an airfoil in shape......does not make something a wing in function.
Our fan blades are called airfoil "shaped" blades (as compared to flat blades and even curved blades that are non-airfoil shaped).
They are made this way to reduce turbulence caused by airflow separation compared to a flat blade. So in that way they are similar to a wing. These are compared to flat and curved blades with parallel top and bottom surfaces.
The airfoil shaped blades are made that way to reduce mechanical drag and create smoother airflow....not to produce lift on one side like a wing.
The curved blade works to increase the airflow velocity by redirecting airflow at an angle.....and an airfoil shaped blade is used....it is selected over a parallel surface blade....primarily depending upon at what rpm, torque and static pressure peak you want the fan to operate at its most efficient in.
In our application....this is not so much a cfm efficiency feature (even though it helps) ...but a noise reduction and energy loss for the power supply (the engine) feature. A forward inclined airfoil shaped blade fan (like ours) typically runs about 10% more efficient in required power to drive it.... than a backward inclined fan with and airfoil shaped blade (like a type 1 fan)....and it needs to....because the backward inclined, curved blade fan....is more efficient in energy requirement than ours and produces higher initial pressure but at lower volume....while the forward inclined type 4 fan produces higher volume...at lower pressure.
If you have done enough reading...you should know that this is what the "velocity triangle" calculation is describing....not a lift ratio....a directional change in velocity.
Also the spacing between the blades at specific static pressure...works as a compression device to multiply this effect.
And for those reading up here and there....do not confuse our fan blades which are forward inclined airfoil shaped blades with "similar" curved blades whose centerline is angled based on the centerline of the fan shaft.....and are technically a variation of a "radial" fan with a curved blade. They are also rarely airfoil shaped. They have parallel surfaces.
Ray |
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LeeE
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SGKent
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:37 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 cooling fan air flow, missing blades |
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you said when was a fan no good. When it has broken blade(s). Can it be used - sure, which answers your next question - what does shoelaces etc have to do with this. Simple - y'all are cheap and you find every single way to avoid paying for the correct new or used part. The reason so many parts are hard to find is simply because the wrecking yards who had all the nice air cooled stuff crushed them about 2005 when they got tired of people whining that a part that took 2 hours to remove was only worth $5. Folks here always say, it goes like this... "wouldn't it be great if a good quality part was made.... then when it is made the next comment is - Oh, I can buy a cheap Chinese one for 1/3rd that and I don't plan to keep the bus much longer anyway... . So shame on me for simply stating the obvious.
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Yarkle
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:46 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 cooling fan air flow, missing blades |
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| asiab3 wrote: |
Someone else can do that leg work. I'll be at the beach or in Death Valley or Maine or something.
Robbie |
HOPE SO! 
I could have sworn someone on here had a thread about this issue, i thought it was Ray Greenwood, but obviously not. I think it was along the lines of if you snap one blade off, you can get away with the 180 trick, but its quickly a point of diminishing returns. Racing application maybe?
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raygreenwood
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:12 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 cooling fan air flow, missing blades |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| you said when was a fan no good. When it has broken blade(s). Can it be used - sure, which answers your next question - what does shoelaces etc have to do with this. Simple - y'all are cheap and you find every single way to avoid paying for the correct new or used part. The reason so many parts are hard to find is simply because the wrecking yards who had all the nice air cooled stuff crushed them about 2005 when they got tired of people whining that a part that took 2 hours to remove was only worth $5. Folks here always say, it goes like this... "wouldn't it be great if a good quality part was made.... then when it is made the next comment is - Oh, I can buy a cheap Chinese one for 1/3rd that and I don't plan to keep the bus much longer anyway... . So shame on me for simply stating the obvious. |
Ok....Ido agree with your beef! It is fact....that most of these got crushed by junkyards who were lazy and type 1 oriented.
And...its also true.....that if someone did step up and say...."hey I am casting a run of type 4 fans....but they will be $125 each" (a bargain actually).....most would whine and not buy them.
Me.....I already see what is coming. Saw it years ago. Fans for type 4...WILL be one of those items...along with good engine cases....that stop forward motion in type 4.
You cannot drive without a fan.
These WILL become scarce. I would bet that probably 15-20% of type 4 engines are running around with a broken blade already
A single broken blade is not going to affect you enough to make a difference most people can measure. And you could leave it and just get it rebalanced. Or you could break out the opposite blade and motor on.....with little or no measureable difference. I have done all of the above with no issues......and....not because I was cheap.....but because last time I had a fan with a broken blade that I had to run with.....I could not find one locally and all that I could find were people selling fans with a broken blade!
I was not about to pay for a fan with a broken blade. I already had one!
This was not pre internet...but was early internet. There was not much out there yet in 1999-2000.
So.....that was the first time. Since 2000...mostly working on other peoples stuff....finding a fan became an issue again...twice. in about 2007.....I just decided to do what I do with other parts I KNOW will become scarce......I started buying one about every 6 months when I found a good deal on a straight fan.
I have about 8 in my stash....somewhere.....about 4 just in the house ....including two that have one broken fin.....that I bought anyway because
A. I know you can run one just fine of its balanced and
B. Because I got them for about $10 each.
There will come a point in time.....maybe after I'm dead....hard to say.....when people will be posting ads in the classifieds.... "good usable type 4 fan....only missing 1 blade".....and people will fight each to get it for $150.
Thats NOT why I bought a handful. Its because....if you drive and work on your car a lot.....its not hard to drop something into the fan and take out a blade. Been there...done that. I tell you....a deep well 13mm socket dropped into the scoop of an idling 412 with take out a blade in the blink of an eye.
Its good to have spares.
I also think its good....and the point of this thread.....to ask and figure out.....if a fan with a broken blade can be used and what fan be done with it.
Ray |
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