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56Cabrio
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Joined: May 22, 2008
Posts: 1899
Location: San Fernando Valley, CA
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 Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:39 pm Post subject: Stainless steel hard brake lines |
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Been putting this off for a while, I am going to replace all the hard brake lines in my oval. So who makes the best stainless steel hard brake lines or are they all from the same manufacture ? So does it matter what vendor I get them from.
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1956 Rag Top owned since 1988
1956 Convertible owned since 2000
1963 Hard Top
RIP Dad 4/20/1951 - 2/4/2023 |
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banana split
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Joined: January 22, 2002
Posts: 1070
Location: Beautiful British Columbia Canada
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:09 pm Post subject: Re: Stainless steel hard brake lines |
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I just installed a kit from IAP West. I bought them through CIP. I had zero issues with the kit. All of the lengths were perfect.
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txoval
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Joined: January 23, 2004
Posts: 3552
Location: The Woodlands, TX
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:14 pm Post subject: Re: Stainless steel hard brake lines |
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I bought mine from CIP as well...no issues
Just be careful with passenger rear or remove battery...dont ask why, lol |
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jason
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Joined: August 07, 2002
Posts: 3444
Location: Garage
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:23 pm Post subject: Re: Stainless steel hard brake lines |
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I used the copper nickel tube. $40 for the whole car. It’s steel with copper so it wont rust. I’d let you use my flaring tools but Im not in Sylmar anymore.
I was looking at the Stainless, the ends are usually just plain steel. Real hard to find Stainless bubble/din metric ends. If you do theyre like $5 each. |
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Eric&Barb
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Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 24733
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:53 am Post subject: Re: Stainless steel hard brake lines |
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Good time to upgrade to dual circuit MC and DOT 5 brake fluid for much less rust in the brake cylinders.
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txoval
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Joined: January 23, 2004
Posts: 3552
Location: The Woodlands, TX
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:36 am Post subject: Re: Stainless steel hard brake lines |
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I agree completely.
| Eric&Barb wrote: |
| Good time to upgrade to dual circuit MC and DOT 5 brake fluid for much less rust in the brake cylinders. |
Another comment to marinate on is:
The original lines lasted over 50 years and in much different driving conditions then what most of us put these cars through now. Most are toys and driven on sunny days.
Any of the replacement lines will work great, but for the small price difference, I recommend going with the SS or coated lines
The dual MC is a no brainer to me...so is the reservoir that mounts directly on top of it. |
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slalombuggy
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Joined: July 17, 2010
Posts: 9145
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:55 am Post subject: Re: Stainless steel hard brake lines |
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I've used the ones from IAP also and they fit exact.
I would recommend a tubing bender so you have nice radii on your bends. you can buy them for $20.
If you have the coin I would also upgrade to stainless flex lines. If you don't like the stainless finish you can always buy lengths of black heatshrink and slide it over the braided part of the hose and shrink it.
Get the cheaper kind though without the glue inside it as it is a lot more flexible.
brad |
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jason
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Joined: August 07, 2002
Posts: 3444
Location: Garage
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:43 pm Post subject: Re: Stainless steel hard brake lines |
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| You can use a big socket or something round for bends. Just bend around it. |
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Mark Evans 
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Joined: April 21, 2004
Posts: 1931
Location: Alsea,Oregon
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:07 pm Post subject: Re: Stainless steel hard brake lines |
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| Eric&Barb wrote: |
| Good time to upgrade to dual circuit MC and DOT 5 brake fluid for much less rust in the brake cylinders. |
I have an entire new brake system that I have not filled and bled yet. Would I be best off to use the DOT 5?
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Eric&Barb
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Joined: September 19, 2004
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Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:33 pm Post subject: Re: Stainless steel hard brake lines |
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| Mark Evans wrote: |
| Eric&Barb wrote: |
| Good time to upgrade to dual circuit MC and DOT 5 brake fluid for much less rust in the brake cylinders. |
I have an entire new brake system that I have not filled and bled yet. Would I be best off to use the DOT 5? |
Have been switching our VWs over to DOT 5 due to it being better in the long run. Went from tearing all the brake cylinders apart every 1.5 to 2 years for cleaning out of rust, inspection and replace about half the cylinders each time. If I did not do this the cylinders much sooner than later would fail and leak due to the rust tearing up the rubber seals. Switched to DOT 5 and tried not taking apart for regular scheduled inspection. Got over eight years and before having any problem. Had to replace one rear wheel cylinder due to seized piston. The others were rust free and only slightly leaking due to worn our rubber seals. Rebuilt the latter with brake paste and new rubber over a year ago and no problems.
Still good to bleed once each wheel once each year to get rid of any water that might have gotten into the system and has settled in the lowest part of it. Water and DOT 5 separate like water and oil does.
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jason
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:25 pm Post subject: Re: Stainless steel hard brake lines |
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| Depends on where your at. Ive never had rust in wheel cylinders and I’m terrible at routine maintenance. I have never tried Dot 5 but remember reading it makes the pedal spongy and if water does get in it will stay put and rust. Everything I read about it was bad except the not hurting paint aspect. Dot 5.1 is what European cars have, non silicone. |
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Eric&Barb
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Joined: September 19, 2004
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Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:00 pm Post subject: Re: Stainless steel hard brake lines |
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| jason wrote: |
| Depends on where your at. Ive never had rust in wheel cylinders and I’m terrible at routine maintenance. I have never tried Dot 5 but remember reading it makes the pedal spongy and if water does get in it will stay put and rust. |
Would not be surprised if one lives and only drives in a desert climate that brake rust problems will be less.
Any sponginess is slight with DOT 5. Again easy to burp bleed the water out as it stays separate from the DOT 5.
DOT 3 will suck water right out of the air due to its chemical composition and it mixes throughly into it, so all the fluid has to be blown out to be replaced. This water in turn will cause rust by staying put. Plus can turn to steam with heavy brake use that heats it up, and cause total sudden brake failure.
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jason
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| Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:28 am Post subject: Re: Stainless steel hard brake lines |
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Everything I’ve read says only use Dot 5 on show cars. It doesn’t come standard in any vehicle. European vehicles spec Dot 5 but theirs is Dot 5.1 in the USA. They don’t have the silicone stuff there so they don’t recognize it.
This is what I’ve read from multiple sources. The only positive is the paint aspect. If water is in there, it needs to come out with either one. |
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Eric&Barb
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Joined: September 19, 2004
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Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:59 pm Post subject: Re: Stainless steel hard brake lines |
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| jason wrote: |
Everything I’ve read says only use Dot 5 on show cars. It doesn’t come standard in any vehicle. European vehicles spec Dot 5 but theirs is Dot 5.1 in the USA. They don’t have the silicone stuff there so they don’t recognize it.
This is what I’ve read from multiple sources. The only positive is the paint aspect. If water is in there, it needs to come out with either one. |
That is because almost all modern passenger type automobiles come with ABS, which as a general rule DOT 5 does not play well with due to being a bit thicker of fluid than DOT 3, 4, or 5.1. So since we are talking and driving vintage ACVWs without ABS that is a moot point. Harley Davidson uses silicone as the factory fill. US military and NATO forces uses DOT 5 due to less maintenance and the long periods that equipment can sit.
Her is the 2001 Mil Spec on DOT 5:
http://quicksearch.dla.mil/Transient/E67C480E915140C7B96BDEC4CC9510DF.pdf
and the above has been reviewed and validated in 2008 and again in 2015:
http://quicksearch.dla.mil/qsDocDetails.aspx?ident_number=25250
Since most show cars, especially very expensive vintage ones are for the most part not daily driven it helps to have as little rust as possible build up in the brake system. DOT 5.1 is not Silicone brake fluid so it will work with ABS, but has same water mixing problem as DOT 3 & 4.
Mind you we have many tens of thousands of miles of daily driving on just our 1960 walk thru panel camper conversion with around town and long cross country trips. The latter travel often with heavy loads to swap meets.
http://www.onestopauto.com/Can-DOT-5-Brake-Fluid-Be-Used-Instead-of-DOT-3-or4.html
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slalombuggy
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Joined: July 17, 2010
Posts: 9145
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:15 pm Post subject: Re: Stainless steel hard brake lines |
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I've had DOT 5 in my buggy for 8 years. I didn't notice a spongy pedal at all. I use it in all my cars.
brad |
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djfordmanjack
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Joined: June 15, 2009
Posts: 2171
Location: Graz, Austria, Europe
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| Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:36 pm Post subject: Re: Stainless steel hard brake lines |
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Love the Dot 5 silicone.
We Europeans DO know silicone brake fluid. a lot of Harleys use it. We do have Harleys over here as well 
Dot 5 has been recommended amongst vintage vehicle enthusiasts for non ABS systems for a decade or even longer now. I have it in 2 of my cars and I personally only use it with all new brake components. I am not sure if flushing hoses or used M/C would be good enough to remove all the old alcohol based fluid residue.
When my 56 Oval gets all new brake parts in March it will certainly get topped off with Dot 5 silicone brake fluid. I prefer to use the Harley Davidson brand.
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Eric&Barb
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Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 24733
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:04 pm Post subject: Re: Stainless steel hard brake lines |
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| djfordmanjack wrote: |
| I am not sure if flushing hoses or used M/C would be good enough to remove all the old alcohol based fluid residue. |
We have probably been on the much more careful side when switching than we really need to have done. Wait till having lots of time to do such on each VW. Take all the brake cylinders apart for a good cleaning out and leave open. Blow out the lines with compressed air. Then wait about three weeks for all the old brake fluid to dry out. Put it all back together, applying brake paste (Sil-Glide works fine with silicone brake fluid, where others will not) in each cylinder. Pour in the DOT 5 brake fluid at least over night before trying to bleed the system. Since DOT 5 brake fluid is a tad bit thicker it holds small air bubbles in it longer than the other types, so helps to let it sit and separate out to larger bubbles that are much easier to bleed out. Any brake fluid should not be shook up in the bottle due to this. Do not slam the brake pedal with your foot when pumping it, that seems to cause the larger air bubbles in the system to turn into tiny hard to bleed out bubbles. If it does not bleed out in two or three tries it might be better to wait again over night before trying again.
Of course make sure to use the proper procedure to bleed single or dual circuit brakes. Each requires different steps to do it correctly!!
All the above can make the bleeding out of air take less than an hour, or all weekend long if you do it wrong. As to the latter BTDT.
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jason
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| Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:20 pm Post subject: Re: Stainless steel hard brake lines |
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| Silicone absorbs air, tiny air bubbles. I don't want all those microscopic air bubbles vapor locking my brakes. You can run whatever you want. My reservoir is under the car so I'm not concerned with the paint. The rust is mute. If water is in there, it's in there mixed or not. Read about it on the Wilwood website. |
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Eric&Barb
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Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 24733
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:11 pm Post subject: Re: Stainless steel hard brake lines |
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| jason wrote: |
| Silicone absorbs air, tiny air bubbles. I don't want all those microscopic air bubbles vapor locking my brakes. You can run whatever you want. My reservoir is under the car so I'm not concerned with the paint. The rust is mute. If water is in there, it's in there mixed or not. Read about it on the Wilwood website. |
Think you mean this website article:
https://theshopmag.com/features/brake-fluid-tech
If it does foam, it is not noticeable with just daily driving. Since we are not using ABS not a problem. Maybe if we were Le Manns racing it would, but we do not.
Only way for the fluid to aerate is if one does not keep the reservoir filled. Air can not get in to the pressurized parts of the brake system magically.
As for water in the system, which is easier to deal with the problem?
1. Completely empty the system, refill and purge out all the air out of all the lengths of the lines.
2. Bleed each wheel once each year and not need to deal with taking the entire system apart for at least eight years.
If you are totally going off that article (which it is a good one) in full severe-duty use (drag racing, road racing, autocross, oval track, etc.) that you seem to demand. Then you should also:
| Quote: |
| For a race application, plan to change your brake fluid at least several times during the season. Ideally, the fluid should be changed before or after every race, especially if you’ve been racing in very humid conditions. Some racing brake fluid manufacturers even note a maximum lifespan for their fluids. (Castrol, for example, recommends that its SRF fluid should not be used for more than 18 months). |
Again, we are not racing our VWs.
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slalombuggy
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| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:25 am Post subject: Re: Stainless steel hard brake lines |
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I think unless you are road racing or doing long lapping sessions you really don't need to change your brake fluid that often.
Drag racing only sees a relatively short use of brakes followed by long cooling periods. The brake fluid will get hot but the heat won't keep building unless you are hot lapping near the end of the rounds.
Even autocrossing I noticed a huge difference when I switched over to DOT5 from DOT3 and I use the silicone based DOT5. I had to change my fluid ever couple of years r else after long runs I would experience fading brake pedal with DOT3. Since I've changed to DOT5 I've had the same fluid for 8 years no problems. Although with the car having t sit outside this winter I may change it just to get clean stuff in it.
brad |
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