Auto-craft valve train....what would you do?

[earthquake]

[Clatter]

Just wanted to jump in and say I really dig this thread!


Love the old-school high-end hotrod parts!


An oval on IRS is indeed the holy grail IMHO.
Nowadays, everyone is into correct numbers-matching pan, short swing, 5-lug bla bla etc.
but,
back in the day, a 'pan swap' was a big project that really set your ride apart from the rest..


Also, take a minute to thank your lucky stars your Autocraft adventure didn't end like mine.


Good on you for jumping in and pulling the pump and all, too.
Always cool to see people with practical sense digging in..


Maybe see if anyone has heard of your cam at the Cal-look site?
http://www.cal-look.no/lounge/


More opinion here,
But,
I would be carefully measuring lift on the new rockers you plan on running.
While 'jpaul' hit it on the head, making sure you have room from the intake valve to piston,
I would try to match the existing lift as closely as possible, or have less, because he thing has been run-in for a number of miles already.
It would be good if the new rocker assembly had slightly less lift than the old.
The valve stems can wear a 'shelf' at the end of their travel, kind of like the 'ridge' a.k.a. 'ridge reamer' that you see V8 guys using in their cylinders.
If you had less than what he existing rockers deliver in terms of lift, it would be safer that the edge of your worn-in travel didn't end up 'colliding' with the guide.

If that makes any sense..

This makes a vote for some 1.25s vs. 1.3s no doubt.

When you put them on, measure lift right away, and hope that it's less than what you got on your old Autocrafts.
Hopefully only a tiny amount..

It's not absolutley crucial,
and likely you don't have so many miles as to wear stems badly,
but,
Something to think about..?


Also know that you are going to want to spend some time making sure the geometry is right.
Different rocker design, plus shims, different thickness lash caps, different length pushrods all add up to create the ideal geometry.
With a tight oval compartment, and motor still in-car, you are going to have some fun (not! ) setting up (hopefully just verifying) rocker geometry.
With some luck, your pushrods, and existing shims(?) will work, but you will want to check.
Hopefully any differences can be made up with a turn or two of the adjuster screws..

I'd be setting up the work area well, preferably on a lift.

Here's to hoping that it looks good.
Make sure to study up on the geometry subject, and take your time.
There will likely be some difference between the old Autocrafts and the CBs.


Love this thread.
Good on you for going for it!

We are watching.
Make sure to ask, and take everybody's opinions (especially mine) with a grain of salt.
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Bus Motor Build

What’s That Noise?!?

[jason]

I would never touch an early body on a different pan. The resale is terrible where I’m at. It would technically be same year as the pan. I’ve never seen a 69 oval. Now if you put IRS on an early pan, that’s different. Anyway, what would all this extra work of knowing what cam is in there do. Replace with same size rockers, done.

[jpaull]

Knowing where your at, before deciding where your going is important.

The 1:3's are the most stout rockers and match the rest of his high end parts. They are more stout then ANY of the 1:25s. The have a larger rocker shaft and pressure oiling, This is why I would check as much as possible before throwing 1:25's on.

My vote is to next measure the cam lift and see what is there. It would be very valuable in the big picture. A cheap harbor freight dial indicator can get it done.

If the cam is truly mild, and had room for a tiny .020 increase, i would go with the 1.3s.

The 1.25s also might measure 1.3+, so fyi its not the perfect easy go to. Your old rockers are pushrod side adjusting. Better in my point of view. Cb offers only the valve side adjusting on 1.25s. You have to go with the old style scat 1.25s if you want 1.25s. All this is why Check, check, and get 1.3s and have the good stuff.

I called Schnider cams and they said its not theirs. All the more reason to measure lift and see what you got. Its not only easy, its fun! I left you my phone number norris, give me a call if you want some extra help and I will walk you through it.
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[email protected] MPH 1/4 Mile & 8.1 @ 83.7MPH in 1/8 Mile with Mild Type 1 VW Mag Case 2234cc commuter engine in stock weight bug w/only .491 total lift(CB2292 Cam), 42x37 heads, 48idf's, Street tires, Belt on, Mufflers, Pump gas, video of the run here: https://youtu.be/M3SPqMOKAOg

Transmission by MCMScott:
Rhino case, Klinkenberg 4.12, Superdiff, 002 mainshaft with 091 first idler. Weddle 1.48 Third & 1.14 Fourth.

[pondervwmike]

I am totally digging this thread too. Brings me back about 20 years. J Paul your are very kind to help Norris out. And Norris thanks for keeping us all up to date. The car is beautiful.
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2010 VW Tiguan
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1997 Jeep Cherokee
2127cc build thread https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=681556&highlight=

[AZOffTheWall]

I dig it, back in the day I had an oval body I pulled out of a field and put on an IRS pan, my favorite car ever. circa 1985

As far as those rockers go, I'd get the replacement bearings and put them back on, we ran the snot of those with dual springs and never had any problems, I still have a set of 1.4's on my car today, running a K8 and dualsprings
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My Build: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=665399&highlight=
Continued:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=676470&highlight=

[norris]

Thanks Clatter.....I obviously feel the same as you regarding the old school hot rod stuff. I did quite a bit of research before I bought my 54((and btw, it IS registered as a 1954 Volkswagen).

And Jeff....thanks! I'm going to buy my own dial gauge in the morning. I'll report back and may need that phone # 😉

[norris]

[Clatter]

I thought you could get 1.25s with the adjuster at the pushrod end..

I'd be shooting for the same, or less, lift at the valve m'self.

Too many adventures like this when lifting over .500" with duals...
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Bus Motor Build

What’s That Noise?!?

[norris]

I'll get back to y'all tomorrow with exact lift at valve measurements and pics of the springs.

I much prefer adjustment at the pushrods also. Makes for a really quick loose zero adjustment for me. 😉

[jpaull]

[Clatter]

Not just because I'm in the market for a set of rockers, too..

-But-

Is there anything really wrong with the Scats?
Aren't they drilled for oil from the pushrods like the CBs?

John mentions this in the specs for the CBs:
http://vwparts.aircooled.net/CB-Performance-1-3-1-Ratio-Forged-Rocker-Arm-Set-p/cb1575.htm

But not the Scats..
http://vwparts.aircooled.net/SCAT-Forged-1-25-Ratio-Rocker-Arm-Set-20196-p/20196.htm

The Scats cost more, so they MUST be better, right?

Does anyone have experience with how much the actual lift usually ends up vs. advertised?


See also how they show a range of lifts for the 1.25 Scats vs. the 1.4s,
And how our OP falls between the two..
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Bus Motor Build

What’s That Noise?!?

[esde]

[jpaull]

Clatter,

Good points. I noticed the same thing regarding Johns recommended lifts of 450 to 500 AT THE VALVE for the Scats. Our OP is taking measurements, I bet his lift is more then .500 at the valve. The 450-500 recommendation might not be related to durability though.

I am wrong about a measurement on the rockershafts for the CB's. I read ACN's decription of .984 and understood that to be the rockershaft but its really describing the rockerblock. I just now opened up a set of my new CB 1.3's and get .7634 on the CB 1.3's and this is the same as the Scats.

Also, the oiling hole on the CB 1.3s looks similar to the Scats, so the "Pressure oiling" looks the same. One note, the CB oil hole is beautifully angled and finished in a way that would direct oil flow perfectly.

The difference between the CB 1.3 and Scat 1.25s will be seperated by durability/strength of metal itself, fit, actual ratio, and maybe a little oil flow differences.
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[email protected] MPH 1/4 Mile & 8.1 @ 83.7MPH in 1/8 Mile with Mild Type 1 VW Mag Case 2234cc commuter engine in stock weight bug w/only .491 total lift(CB2292 Cam), 42x37 heads, 48idf's, Street tires, Belt on, Mufflers, Pump gas, video of the run here: https://youtu.be/M3SPqMOKAOg

Transmission by MCMScott:
Rhino case, Klinkenberg 4.12, Superdiff, 002 mainshaft with 091 first idler. Weddle 1.48 Third & 1.14 Fourth.

[Dan Ruddock]

My favorite rocker is the CB 1.4 for the following reasons. The rocker is streamlined more than any other and thus lighter than all others that I have weighed. The tips are heat treated and the finish is a beautiful rock tumbles surface. They resemble the famous Berg rocker more than any other which to berg fans is a plus. On my set I am using the Berg shaft along with all the other hardware. CB will sell the individual rockers for about $17 each. When I set up the geo on the CB's they did not have any strange angles or positions and were straight forward.

I got 1.47 out of them with my aa-500 heads which tend to give extra lift over other heads. That put me at .490" lift with the .335" cam lift Web 86a which is very nice for daily driver. If the 86a does not have enough duration for you app Web can add more to the grind if you want.

The CB 1.3 rocker looks a lot like many others on the market including the scat and the cheapos and the new edition bergs. All are heavier by about 20 grams over compared CB 1.4's. The streamlining will not likely cause a rocker to fail as most rockers are over built anyway except for the long gone cast iron ones.

Dan

[mark tucker]

[jpaull]

[norris]

Thanks guys.
Here's a pic of the valve spring. No time to get an exact measurement of lift at valve. I'm expecting the .519 at the valve that I got with the worn out dial gauge earlier in the thread.

I'll have more time tomorrow

[pondervwmike]

[UK Luke 72]

Just me or do those retainers not fit the springs?
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