| Author |
Message |
danclark
Samba Member
Joined: September 29, 2014
Posts: 63
Location: Kentucky
|
 Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:05 pm Post subject: Braking system upgrade |
 |
|
Hey, guys, 87 stock Westy 2.1 here. Just did my suspension and figured while I have the garage and lift at a buddy's house, I'd go ahead and freshen up my brakes. I am looking at a front brake upgrade kit and then going thru and freshening up the rest.
Is there a community consensus on the best front brake upgrade? I am seriously considering the Burley Motor Sports kit as it appears to be beefy enough to stop the van but also because it uses easy-to-source parts. Are there other considerations I need to be mulling? Other kits I've overlooked? I am about to get some 16" steel wheels, so I am not really crazy about what I've heard regarding the Go Westy kit.
Also, what other things should I be looking at in terms of upgrading or restoring the rear brakes other than replacing the master cylinder and brake pads?
Thanks so much!
Dan Clark |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Zeitgeist 13
Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009
Posts: 12115
Location: Port Manteau
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:52 pm Post subject: Re: Braking system upgrade |
|
|
Since you just did the suspension, why not go through the brakes using stock high quality components and then align and drive it for a while. You may find that the stock brakes in tiptop shape are perfectly fine for your typical driving style and terrain. I think you really need to give careful and thoughtful consideration to all of the high-$$$ brake kits out there right now, and there appear to be lots of positives and negatives to most of them.
_________________
Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Merian
Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2014
Posts: 5212
Location: Orygun
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:50 pm Post subject: Re: Braking system upgrade |
|
|
+1
High performance aftermarket brake systems are mainly sold to people who do not understand braking systems.
_________________
.... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zeitgeist 13
Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009
Posts: 12115
Location: Port Manteau
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:01 pm Post subject: Re: Braking system upgrade |
|
|
I'm not opposed to upgrading the brakes, but I think it's important to establish a baseline built upon a properly functioning stock system.
_________________
Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
IdahoDoug
Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2010
Posts: 10251
Location: N. Idaho
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:13 pm Post subject: Re: Braking system upgrade |
|
|
+ 3 on simple and cheaply getting the stock setup in good nick. It's balanced, well tested, etc. Upgrades are....what? Stronger fronts alone mean in a panic stop you'll lock the fronts. Etc, etc. Check out what VW spent millions developing and learning first.
_________________
1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MsTaboo
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2006
Posts: 4098
Location: East Kootenay, British Columbia
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:42 pm Post subject: Re: Braking system upgrade |
|
|
| IdahoDoug wrote: |
| + 3 on simple and cheaply getting the stock setup in good nick. It's balanced, well tested, etc. Upgrades are....what? Stronger fronts alone mean in a panic stop you'll lock the fronts. Etc, etc. Check out what VW spent millions developing and learning first. |
Yep, that's why I went with the SA big brake kit. If VW felt it was good for the T3s built up until 2002 they should work well for my '90.
And they do. (that is after I got quality pads on them; original kit had cheap pads).
http://www.van-cafe.com/south-african-big-brake-kit-2wd-86-91
Unfortunately these kits are gone, but what Burley is selling appears to be basically the same. Not overly large and with vented rotors.
Main advantage is less brake fade. Has worked well for my heavy Westy, and haven't felt the need to upgrade to discs in the rear.
_________________
Currently:
'90 Syncro Westy 3 knob w/Zetec
The information age has morphed into the age of disinformation and willful ignorance. Agnotology!
Help the fight against Truth Decay.
Defend democracy, support Ukraine. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Merian
Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2014
Posts: 5212
Location: Orygun
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:56 pm Post subject: Re: Braking system upgrade |
|
|
yes, if you mod it at all, do that
_________________
.... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9618
Location: Western WA
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:39 pm Post subject: Re: Braking system upgrade |
|
|
| danclark wrote: |
| Also, what other things should I be looking at in terms of upgrading or restoring the rear brakes other than replacing the master cylinder and brake pads? |
Be careful with rear disc brake kits. The brakes work STRONG with the footbrake (hydraulic).
All of the kits out there will state that the calipers are compatible to the existing cables etc, but they make no claims with regards to the performance of the parking brake. Why is handbrake performance not even worth a mention? Because the holding power will be dismal. Pull the handbrake while rolling, and try to "detect" your van slowing down. Maybe the deceleration is "detectable" but better hope it's no emergency. The only way to slow down (if you have hydraulic brake failure) is to downshift.
This seems to be kind of a painful subject, an "upgrade" people don't wanna talk about. So it kinda works that the sellers who don't mention the parking-brake delete (although the handle still clicks). Happy to wash their hands of brake-shoe adjusting, folks will concede that they "didn't really need a parking brake". Which may be OK in Florida, Kansas, or Denmark. If you need to park your van on a hill with confidence, save the $1000 and use it to renew your OEM drum (rear) brake several times.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bajaleo 
Samba Member
Joined: March 21, 2009
Posts: 211
Location: San Juan Capistrano, CA
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:43 pm Post subject: Re: Braking system upgrade |
|
|
| Sodo wrote: |
| Pull the handbrake while rolling, and try to "detect" your van slowing down. Maybe the deceleration is "detectable" but better hope it's no emergency. The only way to slow down (if you have hydraulic brake failure) is to downshift. |
I don't where the notion came from that the PARKING BRAKE (per the Vanagon owners manual) is supposed to stop the vehicle in an emergency.
No where that I've seen is it referred to as an EMERGENCY BRAKE.
_________________
Leo in San Juan Capistrano
1984 Wolfie Westy, Subaru EJ22 powered. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MsTaboo
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2006
Posts: 4098
Location: East Kootenay, British Columbia
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:17 pm Post subject: Re: Braking system upgrade |
|
|
Car makers don't really like reminding you that it's possible to have an emergency while driving one of their products, but the hand brake has always been a backup to total hydraulic failure.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_brake
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parking_brake
_________________
Currently:
'90 Syncro Westy 3 knob w/Zetec
The information age has morphed into the age of disinformation and willful ignorance. Agnotology!
Help the fight against Truth Decay.
Defend democracy, support Ukraine. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bobbyblack
Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2015
Posts: 4351
Location: United States, Iowa
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:39 pm Post subject: Re: Braking system upgrade |
|
|
If you got your 'upgraded' parts from Christopher at T3, I'd venture you should ask him what he thinks of your brake upgrade idea.
If yes, you trusted Christopher thus far, find out from him.
There are plenty of good reasons to make sure your stock brakes are working properly BEFORE you think mod'ing them will actually help as you want. I am not knocking the idea of an upgrade, so don't get me wrong. BUT: The system was built to work with a margin of safety on a nearly 4,000# rig with another full ton of cargo. How much are you thinking of carrying over that?
_________________
'87 Westy 'Flossie','86 Westy 'R1','86 tintop GL - Subi2.2 'J2','83.5 stock tintop L 'ZoomBus','74 Karmann Ghia, '63 Notch |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Butcher
Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2015
Posts: 1285
Location: Right Here
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:18 am Post subject: Re: Braking system upgrade |
|
|
| MsTaboo wrote: |
| Car makers don't really like reminding you that it's possible to have an emergency while driving one of their products, but the hand brake has always been a backup to total hydraulic failure. |
The real reason is because if they did told you it can be used in an emergency and it does not work well enough, there is a law suit pending.
As far as I know, it's always been a parking brake and was told to me personally by many engineers/factory officials that I need to get used to saying that. 'Never tell a client it's an emergency brake!'
It may have been called an emergency brake before the first law suit, certainly it's insane that anyone would call it that now. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MsTaboo
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2006
Posts: 4098
Location: East Kootenay, British Columbia
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:31 am Post subject: Re: Braking system upgrade |
|
|
Back in the 70's when I took my High School driving class they actually taught us how to use the hand brake as an emergency brake. Had us make a couple tries at it while driving.
If your hand brake is set up correctly it should slow the vehicle down.
_________________
Currently:
'90 Syncro Westy 3 knob w/Zetec
The information age has morphed into the age of disinformation and willful ignorance. Agnotology!
Help the fight against Truth Decay.
Defend democracy, support Ukraine. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
pomfritz
Samba Member
Joined: December 18, 2014
Posts: 477
Location: Folsom, CA
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:06 am Post subject: Re: Braking system upgrade |
|
|
My two cents...
I installed the GW big brake kit as part of a front suspension overhaul. I had previously replaced the brake lines on the OE brakes. I found them wanting in slowing the vehicle down and a feeling that brake fade would be a problem on long downhills. With the upgrade I have much more confidence in the ability to stop sooner and handle grades better. I definitely noticed a difference. I have not, in well over one year of use, noticed any reason to have the original set up again.
_________________
83.5 233K. GW 2.3, SS exhaust, My German Frau named her Stefi |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
markswagen
Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2018
Posts: 1039
Location: san diego
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:12 am Post subject: Re: Braking system upgrade |
|
|
if you have not done it already, and before you go spending BIG $ on big brakes.
fit the BMW brake booster, i'e fitted 40 or more to customers vans, and 3 of our 4, everyone is very very happy with the results, the only down side, is if you have more than one van, you will have to do them all, as when you go from one that's been done, back to a stock one, yikes is all i can say, it's hard to think that we were ever happy on stock brakes.
also before you spend time and $, be sure your rear brakes are as good as they can be, they may only give 30% of the braking, but if that 30% is only really 15% then the van is not going to stop. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bobbyblack
Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2015
Posts: 4351
Location: United States, Iowa
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:15 am Post subject: Re: Braking system upgrade |
|
|
| pomfritz wrote: |
My two cents...
I installed the GW big brake kit as part of a front suspension overhaul. I had previously replaced the brake lines on the OE brakes. I found them wanting in slowing the vehicle down and a feeling that brake fade would be a problem on long downhills. With the upgrade I have much more confidence in the ability to stop sooner and handle grades better. I definitely noticed a difference. I have not, in well over one year of use, noticed any reason to have the original set up again. |
Hmm.. I thought I recently heard of an issue with GW brake systems. Is that true? I think they have had an ongoing modification to the package they are putting out. Worth taking a look to see if yours are in the group that I seem to remember a warning about.
_________________
'87 Westy 'Flossie','86 Westy 'R1','86 tintop GL - Subi2.2 'J2','83.5 stock tintop L 'ZoomBus','74 Karmann Ghia, '63 Notch |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
pomfritz
Samba Member
Joined: December 18, 2014
Posts: 477
Location: Folsom, CA
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:28 am Post subject: Re: Braking system upgrade |
|
|
My two cents...
I installed the GW big brake kit as part of a front suspension overhaul. I had previously replaced the brake lines on the OE brakes. I found them wanting in slowing the vehicle down and a feeling that brake fade would be a problem on long downhills. With the upgrade I have much more confidence in the ability to stop sooner and handle grades better. I definitely noticed a difference. I have not, in well over one year of use, noticed any reason to have the original set up again.
_________________
83.5 233K. GW 2.3, SS exhaust, My German Frau named her Stefi |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
danfromsyr
Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004
Posts: 15144
Location: Syracuse, NY
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:48 am Post subject: Re: Braking system upgrade |
|
|
sorry Mark it's a peeve of mine to reference something great without spoon feeding the masses with a linnk..
so here's https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=401822&highlight=bmw+brake+booster
maybe it's my OCD or Jacob Marley chains to bear.
| markswagen wrote: |
if you have not done it already, and before you go spending BIG $ on big brakes.
fit the BMW brake booster, i'e fitted 40 or more to customers vans, and 3 of our 4, everyone is very very happy with the results, the only down side, is if you have more than one van, you will have to do them all, as when you go from one that's been done, back to a stock one, yikes is all i can say, it's hard to think that we were ever happy on stock brakes.
also before you spend time and $, be sure your rear brakes are as good as they can be, they may only give 30% of the braking, but if that 30% is only really 15% then the van is not going to stop. |
_________________
| Abscate wrote: |
| These are the reasons we have words like “wanker” |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SCM
Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2011
Posts: 3119
Location: Bozeman MT
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:52 am Post subject: Re: Braking system upgrade |
|
|
| bobbyblack wrote: |
| pomfritz wrote: |
My two cents...
I installed the GW big brake kit as part of a front suspension overhaul. I had previously replaced the brake lines on the OE brakes. I found them wanting in slowing the vehicle down and a feeling that brake fade would be a problem on long downhills. With the upgrade I have much more confidence in the ability to stop sooner and handle grades better. I definitely noticed a difference. I have not, in well over one year of use, noticed any reason to have the original set up again. |
Hmm.. I thought I recently heard of an issue with GW brake systems. Is that true? I think they have had an ongoing modification to the package they are putting out. Worth taking a look to see if yours are in the group that I seem to remember a warning about. |
Something about the hub not supporting the disc correctly causing either the disc or rim to crack when certain rims are used. I would be checking GW's website for a better description if I was running their brakes.
_________________
'91 Westfalia GL Automatic (GTA "Turbo" Rebuild w/Peloquin) and 2.3L GoWesty Engine |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
pomfritz
Samba Member
Joined: December 18, 2014
Posts: 477
Location: Folsom, CA
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:44 pm Post subject: Re: Braking system upgrade |
|
|
Issue involves steel wheels contact points cracking the rotors. I am using alloys which they said was not an issue. They are fixing the rotor design.
_________________
83.5 233K. GW 2.3, SS exhaust, My German Frau named her Stefi |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
