Braking system upgrade

[Pcforno]

ID Doug - you obviously know way more than me and have way more experience. Except you haven’t driven my vehicle before and after. No I didn’t lay out distances and check stopping times and lengths. But I am an extremely observant, critical, and scientific person and, my day job demands this. I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt and without any observer bias that my vanagon stops faster, the back brakes don’t lock before the fronts, and I can stop easier in emergencies and have no fade. I’ve driven over 30k miles in it since these upgrades on road, rain, snow, ice, mountains, traffic, and off road and I’ve had equal comparison time and conditions prior. They are better and it is not because I want to justify my time and I expense doing so. I’ve undone other mods and I wouldn’t hesistaye to undo this one if it wasn’t superior

[Sodo]

Im not convinced that its that bad. I suspect there exists a wide band of usability on each side of the engineered design. Where the degraded, undermaintained neglwcted OEM syetem falls within the realm of significantly lower performance. And nobody really knows because NOBODY will test their brakes anyway.

PCForno is a meticulous modifier. AFAIK only PC and the old illustriuos banned Insyncro have reported that their rear discs lock the wheels. PC on gravel and InSycros left black marks on the pavement of course.
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'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb

[Merian]

[Pcforno]

Sodo - I never tried to skid the wheels with the parking brake before my upgrade when it had drums- does the stock parking brake skid the wheels on pavement?

[Sodo]

I don’t know, have never heard/read of it. My oher vehicles can, so I assume its a DOT requirement. My Ford F150 skids. If it was not required; the OEMs wouldn’t spend the money to include such capability on other vehicles. I think Audi made a substandard mechanism for their 2400 lb car, that incidentally adapts well to a Vanagon and there we are; two strikes down. And some strike out.
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'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb

[Steve M.]

Time to lock this thread I'm thinking...valid points have been made, but we do not need to tally the score.
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[MsTaboo]

Once again I'll say if the stock Vanagon brakes are so great then why did VW upgrade the Syncro 16" with larger brakes rotors and drums from the LT (keeping the same booster and proportioning valve from the Vanagon)?
And why did VW of SA upgrade the newer Vanagons with vented rotors?

In the case of the Syncro 16" they did because the larger wheels allowed them the room, and for SA because they knew the vented rotors are better.

The stock system is ok, but there is definitely room for improvement. (and is constrained by the small 14" wheels)
Most car manufacturers go with the cheapest option they can and only provide better when they have to or are competing with another brand.

Idahodoug-have you driven modified vans?
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[Sodo]

So we’ve successfully polled all future members and there’s nobody else out there whose disc brakes can skid tires (at least on loose gravel)? All other discs are (parking only) failures too? This is possible but not a foregone conclusion. People are wondering if they should buy rear discs. I’m wondering if I should try “new same” Audi calipers (again; another attempt to restore my parking brake).

The subject of this thread is “Braking system upgrade”, a good searchable title, for an important safety system. And its a popular modification that members want/need information on. Especially due to the many benefits of larger wheels, and loaded down vans, MANY members truly “need” larger brakes.

I haven’t seen reports from any other members testing any brakes at all. My vote is to keep this thread open in hope some Member will do some actual testing and post. Parking brake skidding on gravel is a really easy & safe test that almost anyone can do. Some other skid-pad like testing of the footbrake (even on gravel) by a member with some performance driving experience, would be interesting to all. Turning, on snow or gravel, perhaps at lower speeds.

If nobody says anything and they just keep on shoveling out “parking brake deletes” its a disservice to Vanagons. I would like to see someone create a rear disc kit that’s balanced to the front, with a parking brake capable of holding my van perched upon “leveling rocks” (its a Westy thing ya know?).
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'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb

[Steve M.]

[Pcforno]

Sodo- we definetly have to get together🤠.
I’ll show you my parking brake if you show me yours
Swear it locks on gravel. Holds any angle. Will not lock on pavement.
But I did spend a lot of time adjusting the caliper roll back/advance, replaced the cables with stainless steel jacketed Lokar cables and have hi performance hawk pads. Also you have to adjust/fix the smallcar bracket issue which is not centered and at an angle so that the pads will contact at the same time- but Ive got no dog 🐕 n the fight and no reason to make things up...

[MsTaboo]

[Sodo]

[bobbyblack]

This is the first time I've heard that some Syncro 16's were fitted with (LT?) larger rear brakes. I sure have gotten the itch to know what they are, what it would take to retro them to other Vanagons, like mine... 2WD. Maybe an opportunity for an entrepreneur to make what it takes to adapt the larger rears as a kit? It would make more sense to me going with a G60 front and the larger rear drums than trying to get a rear disk kit to give decent park brake function.
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'87 Westy 'Flossie','86 Westy 'R1','86 tintop GL - Subi2.2 'J2','83.5 stock tintop L 'ZoomBus','74 Karmann Ghia, '63 Notch

[Steve M.]

[Gruppe B]

I hear you can upgrade to the LT rear wheel cylinder and get more braking force (everything else stays stock)

didn't try this myself and dont know where to buy LT wheel cylinders...

[Zeitgeist 13]

Tiguans and probably other newer VAG vehicles have rear calipers with an electric solenoid built in for the parking brake function. I'm not sure whether you could modulate them for emergency braking, but it probably wouldn't be too difficult to wire up a push button parking brake.

I don't have any problem with the braking accomplished by the rear drums, but I utterly loathe servicing them, and I haven't been too pleased with the quality of replacement parts either. I'll most likely install Eurovan rear calipers on my Vanagon, since I've been very pleased with their performance
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[Steve M.]

[bobbyblack]

[Pcforno]

Cool sodo - text me if you still have my number. We like to go out to Moab to mtb frequently - it’s only about 5 hrs from us🤠

[IdahoDoug]

Good stuff - great information.

Some input on the parking brake/rear disc issue. I have a gorgeous Audi from 1990 that has rear discs and a parking brake that activates the pads to the disc. It's a miserable cur of a design and I definitely cannot lock its rear tires with the parking brake. There's a pivot that constantly gets crudded up and its an annual rite of passage to pull that shaft pivot slightly out so the O ring is exposed and shoot some penetrating oil in there. Then a couple days later after sitting shoot some conventional oil in and shove the shaft together. It still only works barely.

Most cars long ago moved to a "drum in hat" design someone above mentioned where the service brakes activate the rear disc brakes/pads as normal. However, for parking, there is an integral drum cast into the brake rotor and a completely separate pair of brake shoes activated by a cable to provide a completely separate set of brakes. Almost all cars use this now. That's a successful design and if someone's looking to do a rear disc conversion on a Vanagon is the type I'd be looking for.

Our LandCruisers have this setup and its been trouble free for a combined 510,000 miles. We can lock the huge stock 275 tires on pavement, it will hold on a steep downhill or if you're stuck on an offroad obstacle it will keep the vehicle in place, etc. Enormous braking power.
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1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader