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Hard/Impossible Shifting After a Long Drive
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DougB
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:45 am    Post subject: Hard/Impossible Shifting After a Long Drive Reply with quote

Hello all,

I looked at the stickied transmission and clutch-related topics but didn’t see anything quite like what I experienced yesterday, so I thought I’d ask.

Yesterday I drove my bus longer in a single day than I ever had before (maybe 14 hours of highway driving total). The good news is that the engine didn’t miss a beat (so you all seem to have correctly diagnosed the issue I had with my Mallory Unilite distributor a few months ago, yay!). The tolerable news is that I was getting somewhat inconsistent readings from my DD CHT at first (heads as checked by infrared thermometer were around 200 degrees but the CHT was registering near 400...though later in the trip the CHT started registering accurately...maybe it’s time to replace the sender).

But here’s the bad news: After about the 12th hour of driving I pulled off the highway to fill up with gas. At the bottom of the off ramp I had a hard time getting it into gear...as in the gearshift just would not nestle into the gear position for any gear with the engine running. I was able to move it into reverse, but the second the stick engaged the reverse gear...when you can tell the gears slot into position (and with my foot still pressing down the clutch), the engine would die.

With the engine off, though, I could move through all the gears no problem.

This may have been happening a little earlier in the evening, too, but seemed to go away once the bus had a chance to cool down a bit (during a Waffle House break).

My initial thought was that the clutch wasn’t fully freeing the transmission from the spinning of the engine when engaged, and so the gears couldn’t mesh.

I haven’t yet had a chance to check it this morning with it having had a chance to cool down during the night. Other things that might help:

- 002 5-rib pyramid tranny, 50K miles on the rebuild
- just me and a friend in the car, but we were pulling a very lightly loaded Essen trailer
- the first half of the trip, when the CHT was registering high, we took it easy...60 MPH most of the way. Oil temps stayed around 180 for that whole segment. No shifting issues during the first half of the trip.
- the second half of the trip, when CHTs started to register more accurately, we pushed the bus a bit more...65MPH or 70MPH for most of the trip, and oil temps made it up to about 220 I believe.
- the transmission wasn’t making any strange noises moving or stationary
- when the problem happened I still had a few inches of easy pushing at the start of the clutch pedal movement, before the tension of the clutch plate kicked in...but when the issue happened and I thought the clutch might not be fully disconnecting the engine and tranny movement, I tightened the clutch cable a bit...but that didn’t really help.
- The clutch disc, throw out bearing, and pressure plate are maybe 4 years old and have 50K miles on them.
- Tranny gear oil was replaced last year, filled to the hole, and no leaks noticed.
- All shift rod bushings have been replaced and stick movement is a tight H.

Things I thought I’d check first:
- Issue still exists after cool down?
- shift rod coupler, and set screw connecting the sections
- Gear oil level
- Readjust clutch cable to the right tension
- Anything else?

Many thanks in advance for your guidance and expertise!

- Doug Smile
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skills@eurocarsplus
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:14 am    Post subject: Re: Hard/Impossible Shifting After a Long Drive Reply with quote

if it seems ok cold, you probably have a pilot bearing that shit the sheets. I had the same issue on a clients bus. it was fine when cold, and after about 45 mins/hour on the highway it was very hard to shift. you could go thru all the gears no problem engine off.

when this was happening, it was almost like there was no clutch action, because the pilot bearing was grabbing the input shaft and there was no disconnect between the 2.
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:15 am    Post subject: Re: Hard/Impossible Shifting After a Long Drive Reply with quote

Pilot bearing fails without giving warning, the same with clutch linings.Could also be the little lever on the end of the clutch release rod.

Last edited by Wildthings on Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:16 am; edited 1 time in total
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scubaseas
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:16 am    Post subject: Re: Hard/Impossible Shifting After a Long Drive Reply with quote

If you still have problems replace the clutch tube.

If that doesn't resolve it you may have a problem with your pressure plate, pilot bearing or release bearing.
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DougB
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:58 am    Post subject: Re: Hard/Impossible Shifting After a Long Drive Reply with quote

Skills, that might be it...sure enough I just tried it (cold) and it shifted fine both while off and while running. So the pilot bearing that that needle bearing in the middle of the gland but, right? I didn’t even know that was individually replaceable.

So it sounds like I’m removing the transmission to replace this...just wondering, though - is it possible to remove the tranny without dropping the engine? I fear that when I installed my extra gauges I didn’t think about how I’d disconnect the senders easily from the engine...maybe I’m worrying about nothing.

Anything else I should replace while I’m in there (throw out bearing? Clutch plate?).

Thanks!
- Doug
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aeromech
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:24 am    Post subject: Re: Hard/Impossible Shifting After a Long Drive Reply with quote

Pull the engine, leave the transmission.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:45 am    Post subject: Re: Hard/Impossible Shifting After a Long Drive Reply with quote

I had a similar issue on the way to and from Havasu. Shifted with ease when cold then difficult to get into 1st gear when hot. Clutch cable adjustment worked for me.
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skills@eurocarsplus
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:38 am    Post subject: Re: Hard/Impossible Shifting After a Long Drive Reply with quote

DougB wrote:
Skills, that might be it...sure enough I just tried it (cold) and it shifted fine both while off and while running. So the pilot bearing that that needle bearing in the middle of the gland but, right? I didn’t even know that was individually replaceable.

So it sounds like I’m removing the transmission to replace this...just wondering, though - is it possible to remove the tranny without dropping the engine? I fear that when I installed my extra gauges I didn’t think about how I’d disconnect the senders easily from the engine...maybe I’m worrying about nothing.

Anything else I should replace while I’m in there (throw out bearing? Clutch plate?).

Thanks!
- Doug


I would have a clutch kit on hand...I mean, you're right there....case of the may-as-wells.....I may consider doing the flywheel seal too...you know, murphy's law...

sure sounds like a failed (or failing) pilot bearing.
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gprudenciop wrote:

my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese.......
[email protected] wrote:
most VW enthusiasts are stuck in 80's price land.

Jake Raby wrote:
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public.

Brian wrote:
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history
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Amskeptic
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Hard/Impossible Shifting After a Long Drive Reply with quote

DougB wrote:
Skills, that might be it...sure enough I just tried it (cold) and it shifted fine both while off and while running. So the pilot bearing that that needle bearing in the middle of the gland but, right? I didn’t even know that was individually replaceable.

So it sounds like I’m removing the transmission to replace this...just wondering, though - is it possible to remove the tranny without dropping the engine? I fear that when I installed my extra gauges I didn’t think about how I’d disconnect the senders easily from the engine...maybe I’m worrying about nothing.

Anything else I should replace while I’m in there (throw out bearing? Clutch plate?).

Thanks!
- Doug


Doug, check the movement of the clutch disk on the input splines as well. It should glide easily. You do want to have an answer to these symptoms, so keep an eye open for all possibilities.

If the pilot bearing was sticking, you should have a dry input shaft end with a dry shiny or burnt brown surface. Your pinky in the pilot bearing should come out dry and rotating it should feel sort of sticky or lumpy. If you have the above, then it is likely the cause.

Many times, you can thoroughly grease the pilot bearing and restore smooth operation, but you have to be able to rotate the needles in the housing smoothly and easily. If you have any question, you can always extract the bearing and put in a new one. I categorically use Valvoline Durablend molybdenum disulfide grease (the same stuff as CVs) because it won't dry out in there:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Several years ago, I have a perfect clutch job that wouldn't shift correctly after taking care of everything. That turned out to be a nicked input shaft spline that was hanging up the clutch disk at one stupid spot in the input shaft. After a little triangular file dressing, it functioned properly, but still, my back was so done with that day.
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DougB
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Hard/Impossible Shifting After a Long Drive Reply with quote

Well, if you said “pilot bearing” you were right!!! Instead of a bearing I found mashed up bits of cage and maybe 2 needles, along with a lot of metal shavings of what used to be the rest of the bearing. Felt ring gone, too.

This will be a good opportunity to check the end play, too. I was able to bump the flywheel forward and back a teeny bit, so I need to get out the dial gauge for some measurements.

Of course I started poking at the drivers side rear jack point and it needs to be replaced, too.

All new hoses, throw out and pilot bearings, main oil seal, new CHT sensor, new clutch disc, and maybe a little cosmetic cleanup while the engine is out.

Thanks again for your once-again-correct advice!!

- Doug Smile
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Hard/Impossible Shifting After a Long Drive Reply with quote

You can not tighten up excess end play caused by the thrust bearing being loose in the case. If you attempt to do so you may cause the bearing to spin in the case, totally wrecking it.

Read up on using the "diesel" style pilot bearing, easy retrofit and less chance of a bearing failure in the future.
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DougB
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:59 am    Post subject: Re: Hard/Impossible Shifting After a Long Drive Reply with quote

Argh, I searched a bunch of related articles last week and didn't find anything about a heavier duty version of the bearing. Now I've got 3 of the standard type in-hand, thinking I had the right ones. What's the deal with the diesel type, longer needles? I'll search for the thread, but if anyone has the link I'd be mucho appreciado.

I hate to say it, but I think there's a chance I never greased up the pilot bearing when I installed the new engine 45K miles ago.

I did find a small amount of oil in the tranny bell housing, too. Perhaps I'll replace the main seal while I have the flywheel off.

Re: the end play, I thought that was the reason for the different thickness flywheel shims?

Thanks!
- Doug
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:05 am    Post subject: Re: Hard/Impossible Shifting After a Long Drive Reply with quote

BTW, here are some pics of what I found:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:35 am    Post subject: Re: Hard/Impossible Shifting After a Long Drive Reply with quote

The diesel style bearing is no heavier, it just uses an integral rubber lip seal verses the felt seal. It is a bit longer because of the seal and as a result requires that a slight countersink be made in the back of the flywheel.

The diesel bearing is on the left and the regular bearing in the middle.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This is how the longer bearing sits in the flywheel

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This shows the counter sink for the longer bearing, note that this is way deeper than it needs to be.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


You can drill the countersink using a stepped drill bit, no need to take your flywheel into a machine shop.


Last edited by Wildthings on Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:15 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:08 am    Post subject: Re: Hard/Impossible Shifting After a Long Drive Reply with quote

Thanks, WT! That last tidbit is what was on my mind the most. Did not want the delay of having to send something to a machine shop!
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