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Talk me into it, talk me out of it: AC to waterboxer?
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brody
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:53 am    Post subject: Talk me into it, talk me out of it: AC to waterboxer? Reply with quote

So.
Long story. Have an 80 with a blown motor, needs a total rebuild. For the price, I have a hard time convincing myself to put another air cooled in.
Have an opportunity to buy a running, recently rebuilt, very strong running wasser. Radiator, lines, exhaust, manifold included, 2k less than the price of an air cooled crate.
Assuming I don't get rich quick, I don't have the funds to put a suby in.
I have mechanical ability, I can read, and j have done quite a bit of research.

Anybody have an opinion? I can't get a gauge on if the motor mounts line up, or if the trans fits with the motor, or if it's too long.
How much headache am I looking at? The van had been parked for two years, I gotta get it running again...
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WestfaliaMike
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:27 am    Post subject: Re: Talk me into it, talk.me out of it. AC to waterboxer? Reply with quote

I have a 81, that rus great no major oil leaks, drop or two every now and then. My thoughtb was.... if the motor was to blow, I will do a Suby swap If you go and do all the work to put a radiator in (wont be a 30 min job)you have the hard work done. My plan is to find a good running suby on CL, that hs been rear ended and gets it cheap. I found one that a tree fell on, $1500.00 .

Just my thoughts good luck
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danfromsyr
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:28 am    Post subject: Re: Talk me into it, talk.me out of it. AC to waterboxer? Reply with quote

there's a few formerly AC van drivers in here. they get some grief from those originally H2o who can't fathom the labor of love to convert a van, but it's really not alot of work.. plenty here do plenty of similiar projects on any/all vans.

when the air cooled in my 1980 Riviera camper dropped a cylinder, I wasn't staying AC (and fwiw I have alot of AC parts on hand too.)

I wanted
better cruising comfort, (quieter, smoother, less panic in the rearview mirror)
highwayable speeds (taking it farther than my local 60 mil radius and not 45mph on hills )
actual clean heat (I've never been a fan or complacent on air cooled heat)
better mpgs (better mpgs along with more HP)
more complicated engine systems (of course)

so I'm not here to talk you out of it.. but can offer assistance if you go a similar route.
I've had 4 different engine configurations in my 1980 over the 15yrs I've owned it. stock air cooled>1.6TurboDiesel>1.8gas jetta>1.8Turbo passat.

this is a time to read, learn and explore your options.
* stock WBX of course, will bolt mostly right in, the motor mount holes may need slight redrill for your air cooled transaxle position
* the popular(ish) DIY is the VW inline 4 cylinder
(1.8 Naturally aspirated from 89-92 jetta/gold running a simple Digifant)
(2.0 ABA naturally aspirated motor from a 93-99 golf/jetta running a fairly simple Motronic)
(1.8T AEB from 97-99 passat/audi AEB drive by cable and uncomplicated wiring harness) later 1.8Ts are drive by wire and only a little more complicated.
* subaru 2.2/2.5 or the exotics 3.0/3.3/2.0T
* Bostig 2.0 Zetec engine from 2000's ford focus
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brody
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:38 am    Post subject: Re: Talk me into it, talk.me out of it. AC to waterboxer? Reply with quote

I understand that adding a radiator won't be a 30min job, but really, it doesn't seem like that much work. And I understand that a donor car can be had for a great price, but I'm still looking at rebuilding a motor from some kind of wrecked suby, and splicing two harnesses together. Wiring is not really my strong suit.
The expense (as far as I can tell) in doing a suby swap is in the conversion kit, the wiring harness, and the headaches involved with all that.

As far as an inline swap, similar case, in my opinion. Conversion kit is pricey, the motor creates a lot of motion and vibration (feel free to correct me) and there's the wiring harness.

I run pretty warm, and I have plenty of down and wool to keep warm. I'm looking for a straightforward motor to work on, and install, and if I can do it for cheaper and more reliable than an air cooled crate, that much better.

Ive found a few write ups on plumbing in a radiator, and it seems entirely doable. Seems like a lot of people do a great job until halfway or three quarters of the way through the job, anyone have a complete write up I can read?
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:51 am    Post subject: Re: Talk me into it, talk.me out of it. AC to waterboxer? Reply with quote

I would say go for it. It's a step in the right direction and later, if you want to go subbie, the coolant system will be ready for it.

Hans
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:50 am    Post subject: Re: Talk me into it, talk.me out of it. AC to waterboxer? Reply with quote

I converted my 1980 to water cooled. I bought it in 1982 partially converted, and finished it out. The body was cut for the lower radiator grill, and a waterboxer grill bolted on. The two modifications I remember was to cut a upper radiator mount from a junk waterboxer and rather than weld it to the 80, I bolted it, worked fine. I also had to open up a crossmember hole to allow the coolant pipes to go through. Neither modification was very difficult. Lower radiator mounts bolted up, using clips from a waterboxer. I used a radiator fan and shroud from a waterboxer. I used a later waterboxer trans, so I didn't have to deal with the relocation. Until I started converting to an audi 5 cyl, which was so long I needed every bit of space, so I moved the trans forward by flipping and trimming the mount.
This does open you up to other swaps down the line, so it is most likely a worthwhile swap.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:52 am    Post subject: Re: Talk me into it, talk.me out of it. AC to waterboxer? Reply with quote

I just reread my post. The year was 1992, not 1982. sorry for the slip of the fingers!
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brody
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Talk me into it, talk.me out of it. AC to waterboxer? Reply with quote

Thanks for the reply!
I'm having a hard time getting a grasp on what the differences between the AC and the WC transmission are.
The motor and radiator is coming out of a local van, I'll see if I can figure out the radiator mounts then. I'm confident I can Fab some up.

I feel like the waterboxer will be a better option than an ac, and I agree that a soft watercooled conversion is a nice stepping stone towards a suby swap or similar down the line.
Thanks again!
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Talk me into it, talk.me out of it. AC to waterboxer? Reply with quote

the WBX is mounted about ~2inches more rearward than the AC driveline.
this will impact your location of the mustache bar to the frame
and
the clearance of the WBX throttle body to the firewall, also the firewall is different between the AC and the WBX. not alot but my require trimming to suit.
most certainly for the coolant hoses.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Talk me into it, talk.me out of it. AC to waterboxer? Reply with quote

What is wrong with your '80 engine? Just saying it is blown doesn't tell us much.

I scabbed together an engine for my '77 Bay a few years back for only around $400-500 out of pocket, just head work and a set of rings. Running fine to date, though I would like to go back and split the case and replace the worn stock cam with something better.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Talk me into it, talk.me out of it. AC to waterboxer? Reply with quote

The motor over heated several times, may have already had a blown main seal when I bought it. Time was way off, cylinders are toast. Whole thing would cost more to rebuild than ordering a reman crate motor. I have a written estimate from a shop locally, comes to almost double a crate motor, even if my heads are ok.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Talk me into it, talk.me out of it. AC to waterboxer? Reply with quote

I converted my ‘81 to a Suby, and I’m SOOO much happier with it. The straw that broke the camel’s back for my swap was 1st gear on my air cooled transmission broke and I found a smoking deal on a water cooled transmission.

When you’re getting parts from the donor van, if you use the water cooled transmission, be sure to get the shift linkage rods from under the van (they’re different on the air cooled). I think your air cooled transmission would also work with the waterboxer if you’re OK with the water boxer being an inch or two forward/back from where it lives in a factory water cooled van.

Other “nice to have” parts from the donor are the heater box in the dashboard + the lower radiator mounting brackets (they’re weirder shapes than you’d think). My van had dealer-installed air conditioning, and the fan & shroud for the condenser has been a fine radiator fan for the last 4ish years for me...if you don’t have air conditioning, grabbing the radiator fan would be a good idea too!

Good luck!
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Talk me into it, talk.me out of it. AC to waterboxer? Reply with quote

I saw that dash heater box on jamin307's write up-- is that just to supply more heat to the cabin?
Where does this radiator blower live? Is that also behind the dash?
I'm going to get a look at the radiator mounts and decide how to proceed from there.
The donor is getting fluids drained right now, so it's time to shit or get off the pot.
I don't have aircon, and my van doesn't currently have power steering, although the donor has both. I don't need air con, and I don't need PS...

I guess I'm asking if there is a guide to connecting my wiring harness to the motor? How much work is involved there? Which Bentley do I need? Both?
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Talk me into it, talk me out of it: AC to waterboxer? Reply with quote

brody wrote:
I saw that dash heater box on jamin307's write up-- is that just to supply more heat to the cabin?

It's to supply *any* heat to the cabin, once you loose the air cooled exhaust manifold and its heat exchangers.

brody wrote:
Where does this radiator blower live? Is that also behind the dash?

It bolts to the back of the radiator (so it will come out if you pull the radiator off the donor).

brody wrote:
I don't have aircon, and my van doesn't currently have power steering, although the donor has both. I don't need air con, and I don't need PS...

I hear you. Me either.

brody wrote:
I guess I'm asking if there is a guide to connecting my wiring harness to the motor? How much work is involved there? Which Bentley do I need? Both?

I don't know if there's a guide somewhere. The Bentley I have covers all years (1980-1991), but I find the multi-page Bentley wiring diagrams kind of hard to follow (and I wired my own Subaru harness!).

When I ripped out my air cooled engine, the engine, sensors, exhaust, wiring harness, and ECU basically all came out together and left me with just 5 wires coming into the engine compartment to care about and plug into the Subaru harness I made (+, On, Start, Fuel Pump, Alternator light). I think the connectors for all of these were in the black box behind the driver's tail light. I also separately ran a wire to an aftermarket temp gauge that I have velcro'ed to my instrument cluster.

I'm assuming you'll use the waterboxer ECU, engine wiring, and sensors (??) If so, hopefully the watercooled stuff will come out together, and you'll just have to connect those 5 wires in that black box behind the driver's tail light and be ready to go!

Good luck!
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:35 am    Post subject: Re: Talk me into it, talk me out of it: AC to waterboxer? Reply with quote

This is a major undertaking for someone that has not done this before. It's going to be a huge learning curve, the van could be off the road for quite a while and you may never get it done on your own. I hope you prove me wrong. Best of luck.

The WBX transmission is physically longer than the air cooled transmission. To the eye, it is not noticeable. I'd stick with your original transmission to simplify the task.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:09 am    Post subject: Re: Talk me into it, talk me out of it: AC to waterboxer? Reply with quote

Hard to tell from your post, but are you getting the entire van as a donor, or just the engine and cooling system? The ideal situation would be to have the donor parked beside your van, so you could measure all the mounting points and openings to transfer to your van. You will also find that there are many, many auxiliary things you will need to swap over that you might not have considered. Sourcing all these things individually will be costly in terms of money and time. How are you with electrical things? There will be a significant amount of new wiring to add--to power the radiator fan with associated relays, for example. I'm not trying to discourage you, but be aware, that getting the new engine bolted in, will be the easiest part of this project.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:47 am    Post subject: Re: Talk me into it, talk me out of it: AC to waterboxer? Reply with quote

As has been pointed out, I'm more concerned with making the thing run, than getting the motor in.
I was pretty gung ho yesterday, this morning I'm leaning towards air-cooled. Im also concerned that those two rearward inches seem to be pretty important
The labor of plumbing the radiator seems pretty small compared to the electrical aspects of the project. I'm not the best with electrical, and I have zero vw friends around here.

I'm on a limited budget to get this project done, but having a non running van does me nothing.

I'm still interested in any one's input either way.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:10 am    Post subject: Re: Talk me into it, talk me out of it: AC to waterboxer? Reply with quote

So my main concerns are
The two rearward inches seem important. There's A lot going on back there, and the clearance is tight
Wiring. Different views here, and I'm researching it. There's not thaaat much wiring but it's plenty if I screw it up
I basically need this done by end of June, when my lease ends.

All in all, I don't want to take a non running van, and spend a bunch of money on making it not run some more.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:34 am    Post subject: Re: Talk me into it, talk me out of it: AC to waterboxer? Reply with quote

the 2 inches are towards the front (firewall)
it'll fit fine but somethings won't line up as they did inthe WBX.. ie. the mustache bar holes to the frame.. so just drill new ones, use a 'make up' plate to assist if the flange is thin there.. kinda like VW did..

the wiring is darn near elementary..
there are plenty of posts and helpful people in here to hook up the 5 wires it'll take to run, well in actual you only need 2 wires plus a ground to make it run.

the hoses will be slightly shorter in the engine compartment. you'll have to deal with that.. same for the throttle cable..

not a big deal, just good to know going in.

the WBX is fine if you have a good one to go in.
if it's a bad one then it'll have it's own demons..

a 2.1l waterboxer is ~90hp stock. the 2.0l AC was ~68hp stock.
that's more than 20% increase in power and a slight MPG improvement..
you should get 18~20mpg with the 2.1 WBX

I always say to those AC fanatics,
do you want 20% more useable horsepower?
do you want to improve or maintain ~20mpg. (for a metric I avg'd 20.5mpg on a 2ooo mile trip in august with AC running all time last year on my 2.1WBX tintop loaded for travel)

well then all you have to do is add a radiator.. the modern motor (read as not air cooled) is that much more efficient.

then there's the 1.8T I currently run in my heavily loaded camper, it gets 20~23mpg with 150-190 useable horsepower.. the 1.8T is listed as an Ultra Efficient engine.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Talk me into it, talk me out of it: AC to waterboxer? Reply with quote

brody wrote:
So my main concerns are
The two rearward inches seem important. There's A lot going on back there, and the clearance is tight
Wiring. Different views here, and I'm researching it. There's not thaaat much wiring but it's plenty if I screw it up
I basically need this done by end of June, when my lease ends.

All in all, I don't want to take a non running van, and spend a bunch of money on making it not run some more.


Based upon what you've written, with all due respect, installing the cooling system, (including coolant low warning, temp gauge) WBX refresh (coolant pump etc.), tranny adaptation, wire harness inspection-testing-possible repair, wiring adaptation, install of ancillary parts etc. may be a lot to do in 4.5 months.

Also consider condition of used WBX tranny; it could be a dud.

"Simple" things like repairing a leaky or failing WBX exhaust system can take a lot of time. e.g. replacing broken exhaust studs. (but then that can be true of a used air cooled engine too)

Along with previous comments, if your 1980 doesn't have a fresh air fan at dash, a heater core won't fit that heat exchange box behind dash; you'll need to source a WBX box and likely reseal the flaps etc. on it. I read of one AC to Suby swapper that installed only a rear heater. That could save a little time. You could plumb it with capped T's for future hoses to core at dash. But without a function defrost.... Question

My web browser is acting up right now but I have pics showing adaption of the WBX transmission to the air cooled transmission position if you want them. There should be images and info here on that.

Neil.
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