Stiffer 2WD Suspension Needed, Please Help

[IdahoDoug]

E1,

It sounds like you are getting some good advice here and I want to add my 2 cents.

First, you've mentioned something about "euro wheels that have the wrong offset." Since your problem is not bottoming out, but actually tire interference with the body, I think you should post that wheel and its offset so the experts can help you. You've installed tires that are more than 10% larger than stock, have tread block/shoulders that are much more square than the stock type tire, and pushed those tires closer to the body work, and the tires are also WIDER than stock. Without making a single change to the spring, I'd expect you to have tire interference with the body and that's exactly what you have.

I'd also expect you to have longer braking distances due to the larger tires.

I know I have a reputation for suggesting people keep things stock. But I will say I've had my Syncro loaded on factory wheels and stock tire size past its GVW and it drove perfectly acceptably. No sway, wobble, etc. Sure, it settled down on the springs but the thing was fine and Syncros have an amazing load capability right from the factory. A few months ago, we had our 2017 Subaru Outback loaded to within a couple hundred pounds of its max GVW and it also drove just fine for a 3000 mile trip. No wallowing, no bottoming, and I even performed a high speed emergency evasive maneuver at 90mph+ in Montana.

I point this out because everyone is quick to feel they need to modify wheels, springs, and shocks to drive heavy. I would suggest that changing so many variables can bring unexpected results (wheels, wheel offset, tire diameter, springs, shocks). For instance, I am driving with my 2WD Vanagon with 14" stock Vanagon wheels with new tires that are rated at over 2000lbs each. I would have no problem loading it to its max 5200lbs rating and heading out on a trip with rough roads. And I retain the factory handling, braking and can put chains on the tires with the proper factory clearances as I have done this winter already.

The purpose in my writing this is not to criticize what you're doing or why you're doing it. It is merely to make others aware that making wholesale changes to a vehicle like this can cause issues. It's a bummer the springs did not hold their shape and I'd agree that amount of settling should not be accepted. But would you be having any issues other than that if you were on stock wheels with the correct offset and smaller tires with the correct load rating?

I hope the issue is resolved, and I also hope the shop you are dealing with and also the parts vendor get engaged in doing their part. Frankly, a poorly engineered automotive spring is a liability nightmare, and if they don't jump on it, I'd be appalled and wonder who their liability insurance carrier is. You deserve better than this for the money you are spending to create a very capable vehicle.

Doug
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1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader

[Royb]

Ugh, I have the GoWesty lift springs with Bilsteins too. I like the lifted look, but the ride has gotten so.... wallowy that it feels unsafe after about 4 yrs. They sounded so confident about these springs beind “progressive”. A little jag in the steering makes the van feel awful- I dread what it would do in an emergency. I may have the stock springs reinstalled.
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1991 Westy

[Jivermo]

GW has a lot of innovative products, and it's great to have a vendor like them exist, during these times of diminishing quality parts for our vehicles. However, they seem to have given E1 here the short end of the stick, with his problem. The right thing for them to do is to FIX E1’s dilemma. If they are promoting their system, but it does not work (which is what I’m hearing), they need to get their hands on his Vanagon, and make it right. And then, use what they have learned to develop their product so that it actuall works for their clients. Why are they NOT doing that?

[markswagen]

As mentioned before, what specs are the wheels, and what thickness are the spacers.
With Lucy, I run carat Springs and bilstein blacks, wheels are e class mercedes, 7j x 16 ET37,I think, 215/65/16 tires, no spacers, I'm not as careful as the wife would like, and I don't bottom out, or hit the fender lip.
I REALLY like how Lucy handles, so much better that when she had a stock front end.
I have the van cafe oversize spare carrier, I guess I do scrape it sometimes, that's as much me not paying attention, as anything else.

[Christopher Schimke]

[riceye]

My $0.02-

87 Westy half camper (Weekender). Moog 5660 springs, KYB Gas-adjust shocks installed 6-2015, 10,000 miles. My current ride height is 17". The 5660 springs replaced original springs with 190,000 miles. My 215/65-16 tires on GoWesty 16x7.5" ET 23 wheels used to rub the wheel arch slightly upon turning into fairly steep driveway aprons. This has never happened since. The ride could be described as "a little stiff or harsh", but nothing that I would call unacceptable. The biggest test offroad was on forest service access and private drives through Olalla Canyon and Hay Canyon outside of Cashmere, WA. This was mostly at slower speed - first/second gear. Also, driving Chumstick Highway/Chiwawa River Rd outside of Leavenworth, WA. This was a washboard section that we drove in third/fourth gear at 35-40 mph. We never felt unsafe or uncomfortable. I'm pretty happy with this arrangement.

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'87 Westy Weekender - daily driver on salt-free roads

There's gonna be some changes made.

“I find that things usually go well right up until the moment they don't.” - Ahwahnee

"Quality isn't method. It's the goal toward which the method is aimed." - Socrates, later quoted by R.M. Pirsig

[IdahoDoug]

I missed saying something else I thought relevant. If your vehicle's wheel and tire combination interferes with the body during full suspension cycle, then part of the cure is proper sized wheels and tires. Curing it with a suspension so stiff it will not cycle into interference means the suspension is seriously compromised in its job to accommodate a choice of wheels/tires.
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1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader

[E1]

Sorry for keeping you all waiting for my replies!

I am on a critical project regarding our upcoming BusStudio features on a major computer monitor website, but should be back here later today.

So for now, please keep the info coming and THANK YOU ALL for your help!!!
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‘84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
— Colin Chapman

[jimf909]

E1,

A data point for you to consider:

A year ago I replaced springs and shocks on my 2WD. I read all the posts that I could find and chatted with Christopher at T3. I bought 2WD Schwenk (Syncro.org) springs and Rancho shocks. Key considerations for the springs:

- Too many posters here said they saw the GW springs lose ride height over time. Several folks were on their second or third set of GW springs.
- Schwenk springs were recommended by a few folks, incl. Christopher.
- I was replacing both front and rear so the Schwenk matched set seemed like a good solution (v. Moog fronts with different rear springs)
- I really wanted to go with the look and clearance of high-lift springs but I prioritized hwy road handling for my needs (others’ needs are likely different from mine, FWIW, YMMV )

Ride heights (axle center to fender lip, starting at front passenger and going clockwise to end at the front drivers side) have remained steady at:
- 16 5/8” PF
- 16 5/8” PR
- 16 3/8” DR
- 15 3/4” DF

The driver’s front measurement bugs me and I have spacers from Syncro.org that I may use to adjust this. But I also have a 100 ah batt in the kitchen cabinet, a 50ah batt under the driver’s seat and the Westy camper gear weighing that front corner down.

I like all aspects of this set-up with the exception of the lower ride height on the driver’s front. The van is stable in winds and at speed even with the high-top.

Fully loaded: 2,500 lbs front axle, 2,580 lbs rear axle.

I also have the GW 16” wheels and 215/65 R16” Nokian tires and they don’t hit the fenders but they must be close since you have the same size tires and possibly the same wheels (E1, which wheels do you have? Any spacers?)

E1, you’ve gotten a lot of good advice here. Hopefully, you can get some springs that work better for you.
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- Jim

[jimf909]

[Christopher Schimke]

[jimf909]

[bobbyblack]

From experience with conversing with Christopher of T3, I've had nothing but good advice, and a good experience with my Van. If he tells me that my choice of 16" rims is going to offer me the range of 195mm to 205mm to NOT hit the body, then I listen. If he says that a better ride is achieved with LOWER springs, such as the Carat has, then that is what I look for, etc.

My dad once had to sit me down. I had taken him to a few places where I wanted to do a project on our ranch. I asked him for advice. He gave his advice, and I didn't take it. His response was "If you are not going to take my advice, then don't ask"

Oh... and, did you Roll the Lip yet?
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'87 Westy 'Flossie','86 Westy 'R1','86 tintop GL - Subi2.2 'J2','83.5 stock tintop L 'ZoomBus','74 Karmann Ghia, '63 Notch

[Jon_slider]

Issues and solutions

1. Ride height 15” causes tires to hit fender lip. Replace with different brand springs.

2. Overinflation of the tire that is 10 pounds heavier than stock, defeats the shock damping, because the tires bounce too much and do not dampen any impact. Solution, inflate to correct doorjamb pressure.

3. Tires hit fender lip because GW wheel offset is moving the wheel too far away from the body, and because 215x65x16 tires are 0.39” wider than stock, and 10 pounds heavier than stock, and wheels are 1” wider than stock. Solution, go to stock wheels and stock tires, at stock inflation.

4. Vehicle is overloaded, and carries people in both front seats, this causes low ride height, and increases load on the shocks, defeating their ability to dampen impacts. Solution, change to a vehicle capable of carrying the load in stock form, do not modify wheel size, rim offset, spring height, spring stiffness, nor stock inflation.
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My Soapboxes: Inflation; Handling; Gearing; Decoupling; Swepco

[dobryan]

And stay off Jon's lawn!
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Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD

"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson

MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646

Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371

The Western Syncro build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794

[termuehlen]

I run the 2WD schwenk springs with revalved Bilstein shocks on my 2WD Westy and am very happy with the setup. It is a firmer ride than original but not harsh. I have not had any problems with the springs. They were installed over 3 years / 30k miles ago.
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1988 Westfalia automatic Subaru OBD1
1986 syncro tintop wbx

[davevickery]

I feel bad for the original poster in getting this variety of responses. He doesn't know which posts are just self serving and which ones were actually trying to solve his problem. He basically just needs new front springs. He could swap out the set for syncro.org 2wd springs but that is $60 vs. $360. What the heck, it's only his money.

[E1]

The quick reply for those who asked, we have the 16" Euro wheels from GW, having what I presume only come with one offset.

Late edit to clarify: I didn't buy these from GW but thought they were the source. Sorry, they're available to several shops from a different supplier.


To everyone else but one, I again apologize for my slow replies!

I will asap, and I really appreciate and respect all your help!

Except this one...

[raoul mitgong]

Have an auto body shop roll the fender lip? Could be a cheap way to get by for a while if you call around for best pricing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHfMKRhY514

-d
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84 Westy with a 2.1 (Groover)
86 Tintop Syncro (Crow)
86 Tintop Syncro to Westy project (Tom Servo)
91 Westy (Only the top 12 inches of this van (a burn victim))

[Christopher Schimke]