Floor Starting My Rebuilt Engine - another won't start thread

[fl59bug]

I've searched and searched, and I hate to do it but here is another "wont start" thread.

Maybe this one will be a little more interesting in that the engine is out of the car and installed in an old split case tranny with starter, battery and remote start switch. With the difficulty removing and reinstalling it in the '59 bug engine bay, and with it having eaten several cheapy FLAPS starters I wanted to run it and break it in while its out of the car so I can just install it for (hopefully) the last time and be on my way with a finally good running 40 horse.

Here goes:

My new(ish) rebuilt, '65 40 horse engine, the same one I've worked and worked on previously due to it be a real slug going up hills, now has a new top end consisting of rebuilt '65 square boss heads (new guides, exhaust valves, cleaned up seats, etc.) and an AA 83mm big bore piston and cylinder set.

For the life of me I can't get it to fire. The starter ( a 6 volt OG starter) spins it really nice when I hook up the test harness and give it juice via my remote starter switch.

The valves are adjusted to a (sloppy) .006", point gap set to .016", and spark plugs (well used) have been gapped to .026". I'm using new plug wires. The carb is a rebuilt 28 pict 1 rebuilt by Volksbitz, with virtually 0 miles, the fuel pump is a period correct Pierburg that was rebuilt by me and seems to be pumping fuel nicely (see below).

That's all the boring usual information, but here is where (for me at least ) it gets interesting.

I have the engine timed to 10 degrees BTDC with the factory vacuum advance distributor, and have verified this with my timing light using static timing. I popped the valve covers off and watched #1 intake and exhaust close while at the same time verifying the crank pulley 10 degree mark lined up with the crankcase split, and the rotor pointed to the #1 notch in the distributor body.

I have 12 volts to coil terminal 15. With the distributor cap off, I have nice white spark jumping the points. With the cap on and center lead disconnected from the cap but held near a ground source while rotating slowly by hand, I have the same good spark jumping from the center lead to ground. I also held the center lead to ground while cranking it and watched a rapid succession of spark.

Out at the plug ends I've witnessed a fat spark jumping from the plug to ground, and in the correct firing order 1-4-3-2. To verify the plugs were getting spark and in the correct order, I took all the plugs out but left them connected to their respective plug wires, and starting with cylinder #1 rotated the engine counterclockwise while verifying there to be spark jumping the gap at each grounded spark plug.

Just to lay to rest an obvious question some might ask, I am 100% SURE I have the plug wires connected to the distributor cap in the correct location!

Moving on, I did a cranking compression test, and saw the following:

#1 132 psi
#2 142 psi
#3 130 psi
#4 125 psi

which I would expect from a new top end.

Now that I'm sure there is spark, I wanted to check the fuel.

I seem also to have plenty of fuel, having verified this using a fuel pressure gauge connected between the fuel pump output and the carb input. I saw 3 psi fuel pressure. when I disconnect the line from the carb input and crank fuel shoots out with each pump of the fuel pump diaphragm. I opened up the carb and saw the float bowl full, and when I pull the accelerator arm I see a nice squirt of fuel going down the carb throat.

After verifying the timing, spark and fuel, when I try to start it, it coughs, sputters and pops out the carb, with occasional flame seen down the carb throat. I've tried messing with the choke, alternately arming (enabling) and disarming that, with no real difference seen. I see misty exhaust coming from the tail pipes, almost like the fuel mixture is too rich, but again there is 3psi no more no less at hand, and I am thinking this is good. I have a fuel pressure regulator and if need be can connect that and dial the FP back down to say, 2.5psi if 3 is too much.

I'm really stumped, and have tried throwing parts at the problem with no success. I've switched from the 28 pict 1 to a 30 pict 1, switched from the vacuum advance distributor to a good working 009, switched fuel pumps and coils, but nothing has worked so far.

I have probably left something out, but have done my best to provide all the circumstances I'm seeing as well as the countless attempts at getting it to run.

I can take a video and post that if it will help. Sorry for the long-winded thread, but I don't want to waste everyone's time with yet another "It wont start" rant.

thanks for any insight or advice you can provide.

[fl59bug]

I just tried to start the engine a minute ago. It is coughing and spitting fuel out the carb throat still, sometimes in small drops. It smokes accordingly. It seems like it is definitely too much fuel and not enough spark, even though I know with certainty there is spark and it is in the correct 1-4-3-2 order. This spark is present from the hi tension lead of the distributor, down to the rotor and out to each plug in firing order.

The plugs themselves don't look horrible, but they were in the heads when they went to the rebuilder. Is it possible the hot tanking or whatever cleaning the heads underwent prior to being rebuilt did harm to them? Could something as simple as replacing these plugs get my engine to start up? I'm skeptical since I see them sparking, but otherwise I'm completely out of ideas how to get it to start.

[Slow 1200]

Post a picture....but i think it's the firing order

[Slow 1200]

Just saw the other post, yes get new plugs for sure

[carcrazed]

I agree. Sometimes the simplest things cause the largest problems. Might have a fouled out plug or two. Change the plugs, give it a try. If it doesn't fire up, disconnect the fuel and try a squirt of starting fluid. After that, I would consider a timing problem.
_________________
1965 Herbie Replica. 1776cc dual Kads.
1961 Beetle 33,000 Original Miles

"Just When you think you are getting ahead, you're always wrong."

[fl59bug]

I hope its the plugs but I have a sinking feeling about this, since I see rapid spark at each plug with the plug removed but connected to its wire and held next to the intake manifold while I crank the engine over. It just keeps popping through the carburetor like crazy and spits fuel mist and droplets back up the carb throat. It seems like with even poor (weak) spark the engine should fire, but maybe the fuel volume is just too much for the amount of spark presently produced by these plugs?

After setting TDC and static timing, I played with the timing, adding a little advance by rotating the distributor a bit while cranking the engine. Removing further doubt there is enough spark, at least at the distributor end, this resulted in me getting "bit" by the spark at the distributor cap (wire protectors not slid in place yet) and a couple hefty backfires out the exhaust. So there is enough spark at the distributor to shock me and enough within the cylinders to cause a backfire when I advance the timing too much. I can also feel the outboard ends of the intake manifold getting warm like there is occasional flame down there.

Backing up a few steps, within the engine I know when I assembled the motor I put the cam dots in mesh with the crank dot(s). I did notice that the distributor brass drive gear was looking a bit chewed up from me improperly attempting to remove the drive shaft a couple times in the past but I used it anyway. I wonder if that has any bearing on my no start issues like maybe the distributor "drags" on the gear or something? I hope the drive gear is useable though since if it isn't I'm looking at splitting the case again and tearing down the crank to replace it.

Speaking of the distributor, the drive shaft, with the engine in #1 firing position has the slot perpendicular to the case parting line with the smaller segment to the rear of the car, which is correct.

If this is a timing issue then it has the potential to be a doozy since all "known" components of the timing system are properly sorted at least by appearances. Fingers crossed a new set of plugs will set me on my way!

[klroger]

A long shot, but would the exhaust be plugged// blocked?? Try it with the exhaust loose...Roger
_________________
I Didn't know what to do, So I Didn't do anything!!!!

[andk5591]

Gonna sound stupid, but you sure that 1 is on 1? I would move the plug wires one hole either direction and see what happens. Have had that happen to me - I have a test 009 that I use and have swapped distributors and had the wires on 90 degrees out......
_________________
D-Dubya Manx clone - 63 Short pan,1914.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Cindy's daily driver.
Max - 73 standard Beetle hearse project - For sale
66 bug project - Real patina & Suby conversion
There's more, but not keeping them...

[fl59bug]

[fl59bug]

[Zundfolge1432]

Forget the rotor just bring it to where you think #1 is now keep turning crank pulley clockwise and watch that #1 exhaust valve because that’s confirmation you are on #1

With pulley lined up to crankcase split you’ve got 50/50 chance of being on 1 TDC the other would be 3..... so if you are on 3 just turn either direction one full turn that’s 360 degrees and you are back on 1. Watch the exhaust to confirm. Once you’ve established 1 TDC now look at rotor and wire the cap clockwise 1432 or counterclockwise 1234. Sounds confusing but once you get this you’ll never be lost again, ever

[fl59bug]

[kreemoweet]

[fl59bug]

[thomas.]

Maybe try retarding the timing back to 5* or 0* just to see what happens.

[Zundfolge1432]

[sjbartnik]

[fl59bug]

[Zundfolge1432]

[fl59bug]

Just for a reality check, I set the engine at TDC and pulled the 009 and looked down the hole and the driveshaft orientation sure enough, as indicated earlier, is spot on (perpendicular to crankcase seam w/ small segment towards crank pulley).

Pretty sure new plugs on my payday this Friday aren't going to get me anything. I cleaned the existing plugs and reinstalled them. Same outcome, gurgling through carb throat, rich fuel smell and small droplets blowing out carb top. It really acts like the timing is off but it just can't be given all the checks I've made. I tried running with the choke working and with it turned off, same result each time. Would there be any pictures I can post up of anything on the engine that would let a second set of eyes confirm or refute my setup?

I also one more time for grins swapped the 28 pict 1 with the 30 pict 1. No difference. I'm about to throw in the towel on this goofy engine and sell it for scrap or something.

One weird question, could the 6 volt starter (with 6 volt solenoid), with 12 volts being applied which causes the engine to spin REALLY fast be somehow drowning the engine in fuel, overpowering the spark? I did try installing my Quick Fuel Technologies low pressure (1-4 psi) fuel pressure regulator and dialing the psi back from 3 psi to 2, but the engine still won't start.

Another possibility is the intake manifold being somehow messed up. Its the same one I used before but I did clean the heck out of the heat riser before reassembling the engine with the new top end. To rule this out I removed the manifold and blew through it. I see blackened fuel leaking out the ends, so I doubt it is at fault, just putting that possibility out there.


This engine defies any logic I have which admittedly isn't much apparently!