no power anywhere

[scottyrocks]

I have not been able to start my '63 bug.

It was fine, then nothing a week later.

I get absolutely nothing. No starter, no lights, horn, or directionals with the key on.

I have checked current flow in the following places with positive results:

- across the battery terminals
- from negative battery terminal to chassis mount
- from one end of the trans ground strap to the other
- #1 and #8 fuses both flow current
- the long wire from the ignition switch to the starter solenoid
- the fuse in the hard start relay

I also checked flow on the different terminals on the ignition switch. I get flow from ignition coil terminal 15 to ignition start switch terminal 30 with the key on. But no flow when I combine either of these posts with the upper left post that goes back to the starter solenoid. Is that how it's supposed to be? Could that be causing my complete lack of power?

My next step was going to be to remove the hard start relay and put the wiring back the way it was, but I'm getting the feeling that the problem is in the ignition switch because the problem isn't just the starting - it's everything - no power anywhere.

Should the headlights work with the key off?

So, have I made any wrong assumptions? Is there something else I should check? Is the ignition switch supposed to be flowing current across any poles that it's not right now?

Thanks for any assistance.
_________________
“If you care for a thing long enough, it takes on a life of its own, doesn't it? Mending old things, preserving them, looking after them – on some level there's no rational grounds for it.”
– D. Tartt, 'The Goldfinch'

[KTPhil]

Start by making sure yours is wired like this:

Best bet is to take the file (form the Technical section here) on a stick to kinkos, have them print it at least tabloid size, and laminate it for you. You can then check off each wire and connection with a dry-erase marker or grease pencil, and later erase it.

Note that the current flow goes from the regulator, to the light switch terminal 30, to ONE side of the fusebox, then to the ignition switch terminal 30. Then from ignition switch terminal 15/54 to another (ONE) side of the fusebox, and from there to your ignition coil. Ignition switch terminal 50 heads to the starter solenoid.

As non-intuitive as this sounds (going to the light switch first), it actually makes sense and many have changed it and have your troubles. They either bypass the headlight switch, or run power through a fuse. Note that in the wiring above, NONE of the circuits are fused; the fusebox is just used as a convenient junction connector, and to provide power for OTHER purposes besides running and starting the car.

[scottyrocks]

When you say bypassed, do you mean a hard start relay? The car started and ran fine for over year with and without the HSR.

Do you think I should remove the relay as the next step?
_________________
“If you care for a thing long enough, it takes on a life of its own, doesn't it? Mending old things, preserving them, looking after them – on some level there's no rational grounds for it.”
– D. Tartt, 'The Goldfinch'

[sjbartnik]

You're using some really weird terminology so let's sort a few things out.

First thing to do is get out your trusty multimeter ("I don't have one" is not an acceptable reply), set it to measure DC volts, and measure the voltage across the battery terminals.

You said it's a '63 and didn't mention if it was converted to 12v so I will assume it is still 6 volt. Across the battery terminals you should read 6.3v. If it's less than that, it needs to be charged.

After fully charging the battery, first thing you need to do is ensure that the battery terminal cable clamps are clean, tight, and free of corrosion. Also ensure that the battery ground strap has a clean tight connection to the body under the rear seat.

Next study the wiring diagram to follow the power path from battery. (click image below for full size)

You will see that power goes from battery + terminal directly to terminal 30 on the solenoid. VW used terminal 30 as an electrical junction point for battery power. Check your connections at terminal 30, if you have a bad connection here, the whole car will not have power. Take your voltmeter and MEASURE voltage at terminal 30. Should be 6.3v.

From terminal 30 at the solenoid, a red wire goes into the engine compartment and connects to terminal B+ at the regulator. Again, this is a junction point for power to the whole car so check it out. You should have two red wires connected to B+ at the regulator. Once comes from the solenoid and one goes up front to the headlight switch. If either of those has become disconnected, the whole car gets no power. MEASURE voltage at B+. Should be 6.3v.

Here's perhaps the important part for your situation: All the electricity for the entire car is routed through the headlight switch and that is BEFORE the fuse box. You can see in the diagram the red wire goes to terminal 30 on the headlight switch (terminal 30 in VW code is always battery hot) and then jumps off from there to the fuse box.

So. Check the back of the headlight switch. You should have, on terminal 30, the red wire coming from the back of the car (from the regulator) and another red wire going from headlight switch to fuse box. MEASURE voltage at terminal 30. Should be 6.3v.

You should also now have realized the answer to your question of whether the headlights should work with the key off. As you can see you have battery power all the time to the headlight switch regardless of the key position so therefore yes the headlights should work with key off. If they don't, that is a BIG CLUE to your problem - most likely the wire from the regulator has come off the headlight switch.

Trace the red wire from the headlight switch to the fuse box and you will see that VW also used that fuse box terminal as a junction point. Another red wire goes from that same terminal to terminal 30 on the ignition switch. Note that the electricity does not pass through the fuse; both those connections are on the INPUT side of the fuse box. MEASURE voltage at that terminal on the fuse box. Should be 6.3v. MEASURE voltage at terminal 30 on ignition switch. Should be 6.3v.

If you get to that point and it still doesn't work then report back but I think you will find your problem along the way.
_________________
1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650

[scottyrocks]

Thank you. Your post was very helpful. I will check all that tomorrow.

And yes, my terminology is often weird in many areas of life.
_________________
“If you care for a thing long enough, it takes on a life of its own, doesn't it? Mending old things, preserving them, looking after them – on some level there's no rational grounds for it.”
– D. Tartt, 'The Goldfinch'

[Danwvw]

So Current is being confused with the word voltage I think but not always and it makes this confusing.
Are you saying:

- across the battery terminals (Voltage?) (Should be 6.3 volts or 12.6 on a 12 volt system.)
- from negative battery terminal to chassis mount (voltage?) (6.3,12.6)
- from one end of the trans ground strap to the other (Voltage?) (0 volts}
- #1 and #8 fuses both flow current (are you removing the fuse and measuring current?)
- the long wire from the ignition switch to the starter solenoid (Voltage to a ground somewhere that your finding on both ends?) (6 volts)
- the fuse in the hard start relay (Ohm?) (0 or probably close to zero.)

Have you tried putting the battery on a battery charger and charging it?
_________________
1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths!

[scottyrocks]

[Danwvw]

Yeah, That is ok to do and all but you need to check things in the car. It's just that a voltmeter measuring a ground strap or something is always going to get full voltage because the meter is very high impedance.

Remember there are 4 battery cable connection points to clean etc when doing maintenance on the electrical to the front of the car. If you don't have power up at the dash it could just be corrosion at a battery cable connection.
There are no fuses in the ignition circuit on a Volkswagen.
If it's an old car with set screws wire connections I would oil them and tighten them behind the dash. If it's spade luges oil and check that they slip on and off making a solid connection to their spades.
_________________
1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths!

[flyboy161]

[scottyrocks]

[sjbartnik]

[Danwvw]

Electricity with all it's magic tricks still behaves as a mechanical thing.
A wire is just a pipe for electrons and you can measure a good potential on the other end of a bad pipe but it won't push as many electrons through as a good pipe. It's all about keeping good connections by using a little oil on cables and wires and fuse blocks and ground connections especially on these old 6-volt cars.
_________________
1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths!

[flyboy161]

Another thing to keep in mind is that just because a circuit is complete, does not mean it can flow current.a wire is made up of multiple strands of wire filaments. The more strands it has the more current it can carry. If a wire made up of 10 strands has 9 strands broken then only one strand is carrying current. Not enough to light a bulb, but it will read 6 volts with voltage applied.

Dirty connections can cause a similar problem by reducing or resisting the ability for current to flow. It is unusual for an entire car to die though. To be utterly devoid of current flow. So, assuming you have 6.3V at every fuse as you say, AND you are reading voltage from negative post to body, you have an open ground strap. Either the post connection is loose and has arced, killing the car, or the body connection has corroded, arced and killed the car. Either way, you should never be able to read voltage from the negative post to ground. Clean up the ground connection to the battery, make sure it is tight. Check for voltage to ground from negative post to battery clamp. Then to body.

I’ve had loose battery terminals before...because I was lazy and had one battery to move between three cars and I never tightened the clamps on the cables. I’d turn the key, hear an electrical arc occur at the battery, and the car would be dead. I’d reach back wiggle the loose connection and start the car and be on my way. I learned the hard way, and now I am an aircraft electrician by trade. P.S.: I always tighten my battery clamps now
_________________
My father's 1970 Beetle-
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=603879

The 1964...Diamond in the rough
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=612776

My 1958 Morocco Bug-
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=611483

[scottyrocks]

Welp, I am relieved to say that the car is fixed and starts.

I am embarrassed to say what the cause was.

The problem began after the last time I had the speedo out and reinstalled.

When I pulled it out I had inadvertantly pulled off the wire marked here with green arrows. This wire runs right behind the speedo. I never saw it come off.

My neighbor was helping me today and noticed the wire. We put it on and everything works.

I can figure out what some things are on a wiring diagram, but not this. Is it a solenoid, or a main junction block, or what? Yes, I know my terminology is lacking. That's why I ask.
_________________
“If you care for a thing long enough, it takes on a life of its own, doesn't it? Mending old things, preserving them, looking after them – on some level there's no rational grounds for it.”
– D. Tartt, 'The Goldfinch'

[Cusser]

[mukluk]

There's a wire at twelve o'clock as well as ten o'clock that have shorted and burned the insulation off, the one at twelve quite literally has most of its length in the pic completely devoid of insulation.
_________________
1960 Ragtop w/Semaphores "Inga"

[scottyrocks]

Thanks for the responses, cusser and mukluk. I will get some shrink tubing on those right away.
_________________
“If you care for a thing long enough, it takes on a life of its own, doesn't it? Mending old things, preserving them, looking after them – on some level there's no rational grounds for it.”
– D. Tartt, 'The Goldfinch'

[mukluk]

Shrink tubing isn't the fix for that. You need to replace the damaged wiring, and more importantly, find out and fix why those wires were shorted to ground and burnt up in the first place.
_________________
1960 Ragtop w/Semaphores "Inga"

[Sharp64]

I believe those are the parking light wires. Mine were in a similar condition. I would also say someone needs to grab a dremel, some wire wheel attachments and clean up some connections.
_________________
1960 Indigo Blue Ragtop (Blue Barry)
1967 Ghia
1985 Westy Money Pit
“...some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.” - Michael Caine

[KTPhil]

Your wires at terminal 56 are ready to fall off. Those split tab connectors are not a good choice. They put more strain on the connector tab, which encourages it to come loose. Better to run one wire to a "T2" splitter (like you probably see elsewhere near the dash.. turn signals maybe... a plastic-sheathed 1-to-2 connector. These are insulated and much more durable as things get bumped around when you work on the dash area.

https://www.vwispwest.com/111937079.html?p=YzE9MjA3