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My new baby! Auction of fake 23-Window Bus
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AS350driver
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:18 am    Post subject: Re: My new baby! Reply with quote

sled wrote:
AS350driver wrote:


Man, Sled, the fraudsters are probably loving your posts. Maybe they’ll pay you some $$$ to go testify against “the dunce” if you keep up your attacks. You can get qualified as an expert and explain to the judge or jury how ANY IDIOT could have known the bus was fake and reconstructed. Wonder how much of the $137k they’ll send your way....

So you want him to 1. Shut up 2. Not fuel the Samba fire 3. Not share pics of how they faked a 23W



Why does that bother you so badly?

You’re the perfect spokesman for the other side, it would seem.

Absolved of responsibility. Ok. How exactly is he responsible for someone faking a 23w, obtaining a BC from Vw, and misrepresenting it?

You’re just on the wrong side of this one man.




you seem to not be understanding any of my posts.

I have never once said he is responsible for someone ELSE "faking" a 23 window, or that the "fraudsters" have no responsibility. I am merely trying to make the point that he bought a crappy bus without inspecting it. Plain and simple and nothing more.


I'm pretty much the only one not totally nut-swinging in this thread, but I am FAR from the only one with this opinion. There are many people who just don't want to voice this opinion, for fear of sounding like the bad guy, or because they have businesses and don't want to offend people.

The discussion about this bus is far larger than this thread, in this forum. People are talking about it in person as well, and many of those opinions are not being shared in this thread.


I understand about the nut-swinging. Post anything here on the split bus forum negative about bus flippers, and it’s like running over a fire ant bed with the lawn mower. But away from here, the odds are very much different.

But back on topic, a lot of people that might share your opinion, and are not posting, may be refraining simply out of good taste. Yes, he could have avoided this by checking it better. Too late. And if not him, then the guy that bid $135k would be stuck with it...or the next lower bidder.

Someone was going to get burned. The bus was built with that express purpose in mind.

Heaping blame on the victim, calling them a dunce, shoulda called Brendan first etc ..... it’s like if you came to Tucson, got lost looking for old Vw’s in backyards, and got carjacked two seconds after you strayed into South Tucson. Jeez, didn’t you know better???? You wouldn’t want to hear that.

Hopefully that analogy makes sense.

Edit: do agree about suing the realtor, auction etc. if they didn’t know about flaws/fraud they should be left out


Last edited by AS350driver on Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:45 am; edited 1 time in total
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Alan Brase
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:24 am    Post subject: Re: My new baby! Reply with quote

sled wrote:
Pinetops wrote:
There is a lesson in this for everyone whether you are buying a house, a vintage guitar, art or a car.



right, so lets say you have a real estate agent and you go look at a house to buy. You absolutely fall in love and decide this is the house for you! It looks beautiful from what you can see walking around the outside and a walk through the inside. You make an offer on the house and waive your inspection contingency. Seller accepts your offer and you sign all the paper work, happy as a clam!

couple weeks go by and it turns out the house is a piece of shit with massive insect infestations, broken plumbing, unsafe electrical, a roof that will need replacement in the immediate future.

do you sue your real estate agent for not pointing everything out? (they probably were unaware themselves) Do you sue the seller for not pointing everything out? Yes, there is a sellers disclosure...but maybe the seller did not even know all of this? (in this case I am sure the sellers of the bus knew its issues, just using an example)

the bus may be a POS fake, and that is a shame for which I do hope (sincerely) the buyer can find some restitution, but no one at Mecum put a gun to his head to buy it...It seems many people here feel that he is absolved of all responsibility.



also, im curious why all the additional pictures? What good is it doing you to fuel TheSamba's fire? if anything, it makes it even more obvious this bus was crap. Im surprised your lawyer hasn't suggested you cool the jets.

Like I said, I hear you but don't necessarily agree.
Mecum's DID, ALMOST put a gun to the guy's head. And a jury might see it that way.
And your analogy to real estate, while close, is not perfect. There is LOTS of settled law regarding just the situations you described and DISCLOSURE is the law. And your agent is still paid by the seller, so it behooves him to be thorough.
Perhaps I should have prefaced ALL this to say that this is all STATE law stuff. Almost all states have very similar laws, but Arizona is not California, is not Washington, is not Iowa (where I'm from).
Actually, I'd bet that this kinda fraud happens with a good fraction of such cars. Probably fully 1/4 across the block are not what they appear to be. And who is complaining?
But really, 98% of buyers at auctions do not have the expertise of theSamba. Do you think if you went to ANY VW only car show, half the people could tell yo what month type 2's went to tunnel transmissions? Really one should not have to lurk on enthusiasts sites for years just to be sure of getting an honest car.
But the good advice here would be that anyone seeking such a car should just seek any of these posters. I know at least 10 of these people on this thread are the top in their field. I would not say names because I might leave many out.
HARDLY EVER would this have been published to such a degree.
I want to thank the OP for making us all aware.
Al
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Abscate Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:35 am    Post subject: Re: My new baby! Reply with quote

nestbedding wrote:
sled wrote:
ok I am sorry, but all these pictures are doing, is making me feel like the buyer is even more of a dunce. He's just proving how clueless he was and how taken he got.


yes, maybe the bus is a 'fake'..whatever that means, but holy fuck come on can you not open your eyes and look at the vehicle before you buy it?




and before any of you jump down my throat for being negative...ask yourself if you YOURSELF would decide to drop 125k on a turd like this. Regardless of how loaded you are or how many drinks you've had prior to bidding. Really?



I might be one of very select few but I don't have a lot of sympathy on this one.


Well, I left my pocket hydraulic lift at home and without the ability to lift cars up over my head, I was left to try to visually inspect the car. But thanks for your input.


Well done not taking the bait. Ive done a lot of things I regretted when Accounting still had a line item for Hookers/Blow as an allowable expense.
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Abscate Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:39 am    Post subject: Re: My new baby! Reply with quote

AS350driver wrote:
Lind wrote:
nestbedding wrote:
I guess all the other people who were bidding on the bus were dunces too.

They are called "shills" in the industry. They bid right up to the reserve, then drop out and let the real bidder put it over the reserve.

Stock height buses are far enough off the ground that you can slide under them and see what is underneath. A flashlight helps, and you will get dirty, but a lift is not necessary. If you are not a professional, hire one to get dirty and save you from an expensive mistake. Even if you get all your money back, this will have been an expensive lesson.


So just to clarify, do you think that all the other bidders besides the original poster were shills?


One would hope so, but lets them call them conspirators to be accurate. More people to sue, perhaps!
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AS350driver
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:39 am    Post subject: Re: My new baby! Reply with quote

^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Abscate, I like your style man... Smile
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Abscate Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:47 am    Post subject: Re: My new baby! Reply with quote

AS350driver wrote:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Abscate, I like your style man... Smile


You and Alan have shown a lot of class on this thread.

Its easy to criticize others mistakes, and lets face it, the OP is doing us a service going naked on his sins to really show how bad it can be out there. It certainly has been informative to me. I thought these high end auctions were well above this. OP has made me a wiser person.
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BUCIOBATISTI
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:08 pm    Post subject: Re: My new baby! Reply with quote

More pics for your consideration. Keep in mind, I'm waiting for you guys to chime in with some intelligent spotting of critical details and theories about what is what, what the Bus may have started as, and the clips and cobbling done to create the illusion that this Bus has anything to do with a genuine 1959 23 Window...

Click on the pics, zoom in, and take note of non-factory seams, boogery, cobbling, and things that flat leave you scratching your head that anyone would waste their time throwing this complete piece of shit together the way they did...

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BUCIOBATISTI
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:09 pm    Post subject: Re: My new baby! Reply with quote

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:10 pm    Post subject: Re: My new baby! Reply with quote

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:11 pm    Post subject: Re: My new baby! Reply with quote

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BUCIOBATISTI
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:15 pm    Post subject: Re: My new baby! Reply with quote

This dogleg looks like it was removed from whatever donor Bus it came from with a fucking axe!

Note the jagged metal at the rear side, that doesn't even attach to the Bus at the rear, the wide open gaping hole with welding slag, welding wire still attached, a birds nest or something or other up inside there, and how the seat stand clip doesn't even attach to the inner wheel well section, it's just a wide open scruffy seam there!

Also click on the pic and zoom in to see how there are only a few tiny spot welds holding the dogleg in there, it's probably held in more from Bondo than any structurally strong welds...

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BUCIOBATISTI
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:24 pm    Post subject: Re: My new baby! Reply with quote

Driver's side B pillar attaching to the long panel. Is it possible that the entire long panel has been HORRIBLY clipped in from the rear corner seam all the way forward to the back of the driver's door?

Note the overlapping, the previous pics I posted last night of the HORRIBLE welding at the inner rear corner seam/inner wheel tub seam where they LAID ANOTHER CLIP OVER IT, the welding slag, glob of bondo, welding wire still attached, etc. etc. etc.

Is it possible that the Bus could have started as a Commercial Bus, due to the recent adding of the heater log (note the fresh burn marks seen from below, the funky larger diameter pipe to smaller diameter pipe join with black sealant goops oozing out that Everett pointed out, and how the weld seam on the top end of the pipe to "engine shelf vertical area" looks factory but the welding seam at the cargo floor itself absolutely looks recent, non-factory, and totally amateur, with sloppy grinding, too.)

That could very well be a sign that the Bus was a non-passenger Bus, a commercial Bus, possibly a Kombi, a Panel Bus, or if the entire long panel was replaced and the belly pans *could* have been original, *maybe* it was a Double Door Panel Bus?

Bottom line, super Frankenstein, cobbled mess of sections that never belonged to the "original" Bus, whatever it started life as...

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BUCIOBATISTI
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:26 pm    Post subject: Re: My new baby! Reply with quote

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:27 pm    Post subject: Re: My new baby! Reply with quote

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BUCIOBATISTI
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:37 pm    Post subject: Re: My new baby! Reply with quote

And as a point of reference, this is what that B pillar/bulkhead wall/driver's side long panel junction should look like.

No question about it as this is my own low mileage and original paint 1960 Kombi...

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:41 pm    Post subject: Re: My new baby! Reply with quote

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andre b
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:59 pm    Post subject: Re: My new baby! Reply with quote

sled wrote:
nestbedding wrote:
I was left to try to visually inspect the car.



you did a very poor job of this. Its no ones fault but your own that you did not take an additional 15 minutes and look the bus over more closely...or as Lind has suggested a few times, have an expert look it over.

You do not need a lift to see all of the glaring issues this bus has. Are you unable to get onto your knees and take a peek? Hell even those tail lights are obvious. You are right it is easy to sit here and pick apart your decision, but it is also just as easy to see the issues this bus has, in person..

I have a lot of friends, both 'poor' and 'rich', who buy classic cars (Volkswagens and Porsche as we discuss in these circles) and none of them, no matter how much they are spending, would not THOROUGHLY inspect a car.




Can you imagine where you would be now if you had solicited Brendans help prior to this? Not only would he have told you to run as fast as you could, I am betting he could have found you an amazing 23 window for the 150K that you're into this one.
yep!!agreed.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:43 pm    Post subject: Re: My new baby! Reply with quote

BUCIOBATISTI wrote:
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I can't tell if they painted that red or if it's a totally replaced long panel in red "packing primer"
At this point nothing would surprise me
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:43 pm    Post subject: Re: My new baby! Reply with quote

BUCIOBATISTI wrote:
This dogleg looks like it was removed from whatever donor Bus it came from with a fucking axe!

Note the jagged metal at the rear side, that doesn't even attach to the Bus at the rear, the wide open gaping hole with welding slag, welding wire still attached, a birds nest or something or other up inside there, and how the seat stand clip doesn't even attach to the inner wheel well section, it's just a wide open scruffy seam there!

Also click on the pic and zoom in to see how there are only a few tiny spot welds holding the dogleg in there, it's probably held in more from Bondo than any structurally strong welds...

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Gross.

What's the wire for? Side marker lights on the dogleg? (joke)
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:51 pm    Post subject: Re: My new baby! Reply with quote

Clara wrote:
EverettB wrote:

Obviously there's a bunch of hacked stuff here but I thought I would point out something that is easy to look at, if you know.

This 59 shouldn't have e-brake cables that go up into the cab - they are adjusted from underneath.


Yes, the front half of the bus is 63-64, not 59.
In addition, it is dry where the cables go round the bend.
It should be greased there.

The interior in your bus is Mesh Platinum, correct for some 66-67 buses. It is not correct for a 59 deluxe. I'm sure Brendan pointed this out. The correct interior fabric for Aug 58 through March 61 deluxe is Blue Grey. Here is an NOS Blue Grey piece held up to an original panel.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1487660.jpg

Does the OP's bus have armrests? Is it a microbus actually?
Did it actually say in the auction info that the bus was restored to the specs in the birth certificate?
If a shop was asked to put that interior in a 59 bus, they'd do the job they were asked/ paid to do.

FWIW, The correct vinyl was not available as a decent repro a few years ago, and while it is now, it's significantly more expensive.

I feel bad for the OP.
caveat emptor.

Hey Clara where did you see mesh Platinum? was that when the bus was cb/swr?
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