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mukluk Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2012 Posts: 7028 Location: Clyde, TX
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Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:28 pm Post subject: Re: I need help. Carb, distributor problems. |
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@sb001: Your method should work, the only snag being not all DVDA distributors have the same vacuum and mechanical advance. A quick check of specs at OldVolks shows a decent amount of variance over just a few years' span. If we knew what part number distributor we were dealing with, it'd be a bit easier to suggest a static setting. _________________ 1960 Ragtop w/Semaphores "Inga" |
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andk5591 Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2005 Posts: 16758 Location: State College, PA
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Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:37 pm Post subject: Re: I need help. Carb, distributor problems. |
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Testing your vacuum canister is easy...Get a piece of hose that fits on the nipple on the vacuum can. Pop the distributor cap off. Attach the hose to can nipple toward the rear of the car (advance). Suck on the hose and look to see if the plate with the points moves. If it does, block the hose with your tongue and see if it stays put. If it doesnt move at all or goes back as soon as you plug the hole, the advance side is bad.
Do the same thing on the retard side (closest to the distributor). See what happens. A lot of times only the retard side is bad, but the advance side is good. IF either is leaking, then you essentially have a vacuum leak into the carb and it will be running lean. IF only the retard side is bad (keep your fingers crossed), remove the hose from the back (front of the car is front) of the carb and plug the port on the carb. No need to do anything at the distributor.
Now, when it comes to setting the timing, you will ignore the factory specs and set it to max mechanical around 28 to 32 degrees and it should be fine. There are details on how to mark the crank pulley and how to set the timing on here.
None of this need to be real complicated and I just did this a couple months ago on a customer car. _________________ D-Dubya Manx clone - 63 Short pan,1914.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Cindy's daily driver.
Max - 73 standard Beetle hearse project - For sale
66 bug project - Real patina & Suby conversion
There's more, but not keeping them...
Last edited by andk5591 on Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:39 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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cupowater35 Samba Member
Joined: February 21, 2018 Posts: 28 Location: West Michigan
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Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:38 pm Post subject: Re: I need help. Carb, distributor problems. |
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Sorry, you said in your first post that you checked the timing- I took this to mean you had a timing light. How did you check the timing without a light?
The guy I bought it from had a timing light, only found the problem after trying to drive it home.
Am I better off buying a new distributor without vacuum advance? I was playing with it just now and seem to have made it worse.
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cupowater35 Samba Member
Joined: February 21, 2018 Posts: 28 Location: West Michigan
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Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:41 pm Post subject: Re: I need help. Carb, distributor problems. |
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andk5591 wrote: |
Testing your vacuum canister is easy...Get a piece of hose that fits on the nipple on the vacuum can. Pop the distributor cap off. Attach the hose to can nipple toward the rear of the car (advance). Suck on the hose and look to see if the plate with the points moves. If it does, block the hose with your tongue and see if it stays put. If it doesnt move at all or goes back as soon as you plug the hole, the advance side is bad. |
Vacuum canister is holding on both sides.
I'm tempted to try a new carb and distributor, new air cleaner, and make the engine bay look better with a few other parts. Not sure what problem I'm dealing with every time I try to start it. |
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mukluk Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2012 Posts: 7028 Location: Clyde, TX
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Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:48 pm Post subject: Re: I need help. Carb, distributor problems. |
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It appears your distributor is an original German unit. As long as it isn't excessively worn, it will provide better drivability, economy, and reliability than you'll ever see from a new mechanical advance distributor. _________________ 1960 Ragtop w/Semaphores "Inga" |
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bluebus86 Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010 Posts: 11075
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Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:55 pm Post subject: Re: I need help. Carb, distributor problems. |
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cupowater35 wrote: |
andk5591 wrote: |
Testing your vacuum canister is easy...Get a piece of hose that fits on the nipple on the vacuum can. Pop the distributor cap off. Attach the hose to can nipple toward the rear of the car (advance). Suck on the hose and look to see if the plate with the points moves. If it does, block the hose with your tongue and see if it stays put. If it doesnt move at all or goes back as soon as you plug the hole, the advance side is bad. |
Vacuum canister is holding on both sides.
I'm tempted to try a new carb and distributor, new air cleaner, and make the engine bay look better with a few other parts. Not sure what problem I'm dealing with every time I try to start it. |
Many look better looking parts are inferior in performance to stock, even air cleaners, and other seemingly unrelated to drivability items are almost never better when aftermarket.
Bug On! _________________ Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
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bluebus86 Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010 Posts: 11075
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Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:08 pm Post subject: Re: I need help. Carb, distributor problems. |
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cupowater35 wrote: |
Sorry, you said in your first post that you checked the timing- I took this to mean you had a timing light. How did you check the timing without a light?
The guy I bought it from had a timing light, only found the problem after trying to drive it home.
Am I better off buying a new distributor without vacuum advance? I was playing with it just now and seem to have made it worse.
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No on the dizzie question. The carb is designed for that dizzie. Wrong dizzie can also effect pass or fail or smog inspection.
see If the vacuum cans hold vacuum by you sucking the air out and holding the port closed.
If vacuum holds, then make sure the mechanism that moves the points is is freely movable, clean, no damage. Make sure the rotor shaft has not a lot of wobble, and point set is new. replace the capacitor if unsure if it is good or not. a tiny dab of grease on the dizzy cam lobes, and drop of oil on the shaft felt under the rotor, top of shaft and you should be fine with what you got. If vacuum can leaks, source a replacement, stock style.
I trust you have the Official VW Service Mamual, if not, get a copy, very useful for what you need to do. it also lists carbs and dizzie matching numners, and advance and retard values for the vacuum system. also details carb adjusting and a host of other things
Oh, and also check the ignition system for strong spark, you should get a big blue spark when spark wire end is removed from the sparkplug and held about half an inch from the motor case, if you cant get a fat blue spark to jump that gap, you may habe an ignition fault
I suggest you perform this test with motor cold AND fully hot, as the coil can sometimes intermittently fail, becuase of heat. If this test is goid, your spark coil is not a problem. _________________ Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
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mukluk Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2012 Posts: 7028 Location: Clyde, TX
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Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:20 pm Post subject: Re: I need help. Carb, distributor problems. |
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Hard to tell for certain, but it looks like you may have the #3 and #4 spark plug leads reversed on the distributor cap. Please verify they're arranged in the correct firing order, 1-4-3-2 starting at 3 o'clock and working clockwise. _________________ 1960 Ragtop w/Semaphores "Inga" |
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cupowater35 Samba Member
Joined: February 21, 2018 Posts: 28 Location: West Michigan
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Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:30 pm Post subject: Re: I need help. Carb, distributor problems. |
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mukluk wrote: |
Hard to tell for certain, but it looks like you may have the #3 and #4 spark plug leads reversed on the distributor cap. Please verify they're arranged in the correct firing order, 1-4-3-2 starting at 3 o'clock and working clockwise. |
It usually idles fine, runs for about 15 minutes then had a hard time staying running and not starting.
I've been trying everything to adjust the carb and now it won't even start. I may have messed up the timing a bit... Not too happy, but I feel like I have to start over.
Thought you might appreciate the full view. Picked this baby up and it's never seen one winter. 95% original, 80k miles. |
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bluebus86 Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010 Posts: 11075
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Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:43 pm Post subject: Re: I need help. Carb, distributor problems. |
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one more thing give it a manifold leak test Idle motor, and then squirt flammable cleaner spray on the inlet port areas at head and the two rubber boot couplin's on the intake, and at carb base, etc... if idle speed changes with spray, you got a leak.
You can not tune a carbie correctly with leaks in the manifold.
Good luck, Bug On! _________________ Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
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Randy in Maine Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2003 Posts: 34890 Location: The Beach
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Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:00 pm Post subject: Re: I need help. Carb, distributor problems. |
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If I might offer a suggestion....
That timing light you just bought will be money well spent. Do the 28-32º BTDC (vacuum hoses off and plugged with a golf T) when all of the centrifical advance the distributor has to offer is all in at around 3500 RPMs although the exact number doesn't matter just wind it up until it doesn't advance any more no matter how much more gas you give it. Make that to be the 28-32º BTDC at sea level keeping in mind that the notch on the factory pulley is LIKELY at 5º ATDC. On a beetle I like to start at 30º and bump it up a squeak if needed.
If you feel the need to rebuilt the German distributor, either do it yourself or send it off to one of the guys who know how to do it here. DO NOT BUY A NEW ONE AS IT WILL BE BUNK.
Make sure your heat risers are working right and are getting nice and toasty hot by feeling them with your GLOVED had as it idles in your driveway.
Make sure the idle jet on your fine German 34-PICT 3 carb is squeaky clean. Right side of carb. Big brass nut. Remove and clean with Gum Out spray and compressed air. Put it back on there but DO NOT REEF on the brass nut.
Again if the carb is tired, either you can try to rebuild it or there are guys here on the Samba who can rebuilt a German carb better than new. DON"T BUY A NEW ONE AS THEY ARE ALL BUNK.
Report back your findings. |
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vwoldbug Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2009 Posts: 1214 Location: Ohio
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Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:05 pm Post subject: Re: I need help. Carb, distributor problems. |
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After you get it running good make sure you check the preheat on the intake manifold and the air cleaner . Also move that fuel filter and put fresh fuel hose and good clamps on the hose . |
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cupowater35 Samba Member
Joined: February 21, 2018 Posts: 28 Location: West Michigan
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Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:06 pm Post subject: Re: I need help. Carb, distributor problems. |
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Randy in Maine wrote: |
If I might offer a suggestion....
That timing light you just bought will be money well spent. Do the 28-32º BTDC (vacuum hoses off and plugged with a golf T) when all of the centrifical advance the distributor has to offer is all in at around 3500 RPMs although the exact number doesn't matter just wind it up until it doesn't advance any more no matter how much more gas you give it. Make that to be the 28-32º BTDC at sea level keeping in mind that the notch on the factory pulley is LIKELY at 5º ATDC. On a beetle I like to start at 30º and bump it up a squeak if needed.
If you feel the need to rebuilt the German distributor, either do it yourself or send it off to one of the guys who know how to do it here. DO NOT BUY A NEW ONE AS IT WILL BE BUNK.
Make sure your heat risers are working right and are getting nice and toasty hot by feeling them with your GLOVED had as it idles in your driveway.
Make sure the idle jet on your fine German 34-PICT 3 carb is squeaky clean. Right side of carb. Big brass nut. Remove and clean with Gum Out spray and compressed air. Put it back on there but DO NOT REEF on the brass nut.
Again if the carb is tired, either you can try to rebuild it or there are guys here on the Samba who can rebuilt a German carb better than new. DON"T BUY A NEW ONE AS THEY ARE ALL BUNK.
Report back your findings. |
Good advice, I've ordered a rebuild kit, and working on a free timing light. Or I will just buy one. Any suggestions on what do set timing to and carb to when starting from scratch? What should I be adjusting first? Volume screw is 2.5 turns out and not sure what to adjust to get it to idle again. I'm scratching my head really hard. |
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Randy in Maine Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2003 Posts: 34890 Location: The Beach
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Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:38 pm Post subject: Re: I need help. Carb, distributor problems. |
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Always adjust the point dwell gap first. 47º +/- 3º.
Then the timing.
Then the carb. |
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mascrappo Samba Member
Joined: January 11, 2012 Posts: 535 Location: New Mexico
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Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:52 pm Post subject: Re: I need help. Carb, distributor problems. |
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Randy in Maine wrote: |
Always adjust the point dwell gap first. 47º +/- 3º.
Then the timing.
Then the carb. |
X2 Randy. BTW that is nice/rare looking stock setup! It took me several tries to get the timing right on my 73 Super. I bought a vintage tach/dwell meter for $20 and it has been wonderful! |
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Maddel Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2013 Posts: 935
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Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:45 pm Post subject: Re: I need help. Carb, distributor problems. |
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After a closer look at this pic it seems the carburettor isn't a Solex?
Anyway...
cupowater35 wrote: |
... It usually idles fine, runs for about 15 minutes then had a hard time staying running and not starting. |
May be an ignition coil problem? The coil warms up while operating - that's normal.
But thermal expansion can cause an old coil to fail after a while if the internals are faulty. |
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mukluk Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2012 Posts: 7028 Location: Clyde, TX
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Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:00 pm Post subject: Re: I need help. Carb, distributor problems. |
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Maddel wrote: |
After a closer look at this pic it seems the carburettor isn't a Solex? |
It's a Bocar 34PICT-3, part number 113 129 021P. It's not considered to be as good as a German Solex, but still a decent OEM carb. _________________ 1960 Ragtop w/Semaphores "Inga" |
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Pruneman99 Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2012 Posts: 5013 Location: Oceanside
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Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:00 am Post subject: Re: I need help. Carb, distributor problems. |
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I'm running that bocar and it's fine. (Now)
For a long time I chased "carb" problems which were actually distributor problems. I rebuilt a German 034 and whatdoyouknow? My carb problems went away..
Pull the distributor and check vertical play in the shaft. It should not move up and down. |
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cupowater35 Samba Member
Joined: February 21, 2018 Posts: 28 Location: West Michigan
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Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:12 am Post subject: Re: I need help. Carb, distributor problems. |
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Maddel wrote: |
May be an ignition coil problem? The coil warms up while operating - that's normal.
But thermal expansion can cause an old coil to fail after a while if the internals are faulty. |
How do I know what coil is right? Is there a good way to test it cold and after it warms up? |
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bluebus86 Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010 Posts: 11075
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Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:50 am Post subject: Re: I need help. Carb, distributor problems. |
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cupowater35 wrote: |
Maddel wrote: |
May be an ignition coil problem? The coil warms up while operating - that's normal.
But thermal expansion can cause an old coil to fail after a while if the internals are faulty. |
How do I know what coil is right? Is there a good way to test it cold and after it warms up? |
see my prior post, yesterday 4:08 pm on spark test.
good luck, Bug On! _________________ Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
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