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bugtub Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2006 Posts: 96
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Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:18 am Post subject: camber angle |
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Finally getting round to making some longer rear arms. Question is, at ride height what is the ideal camber angle if any? |
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mr_bill Samba Member
Joined: February 19, 2006 Posts: 1008 Location: City of Orange, CA
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Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:30 pm Post subject: Re: camber angle |
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I would think 0 degrees ?? _________________ see ya' on the trail........
"Mr Bill"
Dos Perros Motorsports
Orange, CA
1972 Class 11x/Stock Bug
'60's era "vintage" Tunnell-Buggy
"...no one here....get's out ALIVE...."
Motor = electric
Engine = internal combustion
www.facebook.com/groups/DosPerrosMotorsports
www.alrchapter132.org
www.DAV.org |
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bugtub Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2006 Posts: 96
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Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:44 am Post subject: Re: camber angle |
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Thanks bill I've looked at a lot of arms and they seem to give positive camber
this is not mine just an example
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cbeck Samba Member
Joined: January 14, 2014 Posts: 2494 Location: high ridge, mo
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Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:43 am Post subject: Re: camber angle |
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I have the same rear arms as your example. Same situation. Bothers me, but not enough to hack em up. My eyes see it more than my camera does.
At full stuff they seem to change camber to the other direction.
_________________ My cut in half and rebuild thread
www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=647779 |
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oldschool5er Samba Member
Joined: May 28, 2007 Posts: 804 Location: Ohio
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Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:18 am Post subject: Re: camber angle |
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It is something that is always a fight and for those of you that are using stock arms it is much worse when you reindex them for height and travel when going to a larger CV joint.
When you purchase 3x3 arms the builder needs to have a zero camber index built in, but unless you are paying for more expensive arms then off the shelf Appletree or the lower end 3x3 arms out there you are not going to get a zero camber from what I have seen.
IMO the only way to change the camber to zero at ride height without loosing up travel is to relocate the Pivot. Of course if you are building your own arms you can set them at zero if you have your jig table set up for it.
If you have off the shelf 3x3 you can try and modify the springplate attachment by elongating the mounting holes and pivoting the arm up then bolting it in that position, but you loose height and travel, from my experiance it is only a minor improvement if any.
On 3x3 I let mine go to negative camber under full compression as that is a minor inconvenience compared to positive camber at ride height and full droop. My DD Baja is beefed modified stock arms with a lot of positive camber even though the arms have been flipped. It doesn't bother me enough to cut out the stock pivot to fix it or mod the arm. _________________ HRE in Westerville,Ohio
Full machine shop with all types of CNC. Rapid prototyping available, CNC Plasma cutting, 3D printing and Laser engraving. |
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bugtub Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2006 Posts: 96
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Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:45 am Post subject: Re: camber angle |
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I’m building my own jig so I can make the ride hight camber zero. What I don’t want to do is start cutting the pivot out of the beam. If I did start with zero camber. At full compression I will have more negative camber than cbeck has shown. Hence is it best to start with a little positive? |
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oldschool5er Samba Member
Joined: May 28, 2007 Posts: 804 Location: Ohio
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Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:06 am Post subject: Re: camber angle |
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It is a matter of where your suspension is riding at during your normal off roading. Since you are building your own arms I myself would shoot for zero camber at ride height with as little as possible of positive at full droop and not worry about the negative since it will be under full compression, but I like near zero camber because the buggys handle better at speed but all of this is determined on what type of driving you do. How much will negative camber at full compression affect the handling...not as much as positive camber will under off roading at speed. If your rock crawling well then thats a different story then maybe positive camber doesn't even matter that much lol. _________________ HRE in Westerville,Ohio
Full machine shop with all types of CNC. Rapid prototyping available, CNC Plasma cutting, 3D printing and Laser engraving. |
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PhillipM Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2010 Posts: 594 Location: UK
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Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:49 am Post subject: Re: camber angle |
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As said above, it really does depend on what tyres and driving you do, if you're crawling it doesn't really matter, if you're climbing straight hills then you might even want it slightly negative so it squares up to zero under load for maximum traction. If you're running fast trails, pavement or high speed stuff, you probably want it negative through the entire travel just to compensate for the rollover on the big tyres we use.
I do speed events with mine so I run -2* at ride height as a compromise between traction and lateral grip and a bit of camber gain built into the pivots. |
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pullstart Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2016 Posts: 599 Location: Middleville, MI
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Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:45 pm Post subject: Re: camber angle |
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Hey bugtub, I recognize that rail... it's in my garage!
From what I've learned and gathered, the camber in the rear isn't quite as much of a deal as toe in/out in the rear. I have been battling some toe in issues that I blamed on front camber/toe but the front camber can't be shimmed away and toe is spot on. Then I figured out that I have rear toe in, which seems to really follow the shape of the road, with no real warning of direction. _________________ 4 seater Appletree buggy, road legal with 002 IRS, 3x3 Appletree kit, 6" over Dan's beam with 10" towers and Fox 2.0 shocks, '00 Subaru EJ25 with KEP stage 3 clutch and KEP adapter plate.
my build page: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=662104&start=0 |
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Cul-tech Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2015 Posts: 49 Location: Colorado
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Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:11 pm Post subject: Re: camber angle |
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If I were you.....
Assuming at ride height you are about 1/3 compressed, I would design for 0 degrees at ride height.
At full compression you will have some negative camber, no problem.
At full droop you will have some positive camber, that sucks but not much you can do about it with angled pivots.
Be aware depending on your track width at full compression the tires might interfere with the body. I would check that before final welding.
Make your jig very strong! I made a set of arms once with a wimpy jig and the distortion from welding gave them toe in that they did not have when tacked together. _________________ I'm just trying to recreate my RC buggy's as a kid to a real life buggy. |
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Dale M. Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006 Posts: 20365 Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:00 pm Post subject: Re: camber angle |
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And the story is "customer" walked into a off-road shop and bought one trailing arm.... Conversation when something like this : "Dont you want a pair of arms"... Customer: "no, I am going to take it back to China and have them made".... ok.... Later when product hits market the copied side fits fine with proper camber (positive) the other side made up off the specification on master ended up with "negative camber".... How can that happen, seems positive camber was built in on arm "customer" took to be duplicated but company doing fabricating did not realise there was left and right arms with DIFFERENT built in camber so they made all the arms with half correct camber (positive) and half with wrong camber(negative)...
I would try for 0° at ride height and obviously it's going negative at full compression and positive at full extension...
Its the nature of the beast with anything that has a single pivot point...
Dale _________________ “Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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bugtub Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2006 Posts: 96
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Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:46 am Post subject: Re: camber angle |
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Thanks guys its settled then I’m going with zero camber. That’s going to make the jig a lot easier to set up.
Next question is going to be, what is the best/max angle (at ride height) for the spring plate or heim joint . I’ll be using Porsche cv’s .
is it better to start a new thread for this |
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Vanillagurilla Samba Member
Joined: November 21, 2017 Posts: 1061 Location: California
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Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:53 am Post subject: Re: camber angle |
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bugtub wrote: |
Thanks guys its settled then I’m going with zero camber. That’s going to make the jig a lot easier to set up.
Next question is going to be, what is the best/max angle (at ride height) for the spring plate or heim joint . I’ll be using Porsche cv’s .
is it better to start a new thread for this |
Nobody can tell you that because every car weighs differently. You won't even know that untill you set it up and put the weight of the car on it. Then you can adjust the torsion bars or coil overs. I'd be more worried about setting the full compression and droop travel that the CVS will handle. |
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bugtub Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2006 Posts: 96
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Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:06 am Post subject: Re: camber angle |
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Vanillagurilla wrote: |
bugtub wrote: |
Thanks guys its settled then I’m going with zero camber. That’s going to make the jig a lot easier to set up.
Next question is going to be, what is the best/max angle (at ride height) for the spring plate or heim joint . I’ll be using Porsche cv’s .
is it better to start a new thread for this |
Nobody can tell you that because every car weighs differently. You won't even know that untill you set it up and put the weight of the car on it. Then you can adjust the torsion bars or coil overs. I'd be more worried about setting the full compression and droop travel that the CVS will handle. |
thanks Vanillagurilla. May be I’ve got this wrong but the spring plate angle will be about the same when settled on the ground regardless of weight, but the amount of preload to get that angle may be different |
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oldschool5er Samba Member
Joined: May 28, 2007 Posts: 804 Location: Ohio
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Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:24 am Post subject: Re: camber angle |
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I think you should keep this thread and show us your arm build. I think it is applicable to Camber and in fact there are only a few people on Samba that have actually built their own arms, pre-setting the camber, and done this on a regular basis, so I think it will be a well received thread. If you can take the time to post and document it will always be a benefit and info source to DIYers. Developing a well documented thread is more difficult for people because of the time needed to do it right so I say go for it.
As Vanilla said setting torsions is dependant on the car weight and capabilities of the CV angularity among a bunch of other considerations. In your case you mentioned 944 CV's which like the Thing/T4 afford more angularity over 002 bus stock , but if you polish them it can allow for even more and can push those angles near to 930 stock although not as strong. So I for one would like to know more about your setup as far as your planned shock mounts? Type of buggy/engine/trans for weight, Axles?, are you modifying the lower stop? etc. etc. all of these would affect how much useful travel you would get and would help the discussion in the thread. _________________ HRE in Westerville,Ohio
Full machine shop with all types of CNC. Rapid prototyping available, CNC Plasma cutting, 3D printing and Laser engraving. |
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Cul-tech Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2015 Posts: 49 Location: Colorado
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Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:39 am Post subject: Re: camber angle |
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Here is how I've tackled this in the past.
I let the axles tell me my travel. They will most likely be the limiting factor.
1. Mock things up and determine you're droop based off max CV angle you are comfortable with.
2. Figure out your compression. This might be limited by the CV angles or the chassis might bottom out first. One or the other will determine your compression limit
3. Let's say you came up with 12" travel. 1/3 compression would put you at 4" compressed for rideheight. Mark that so you can always find it. Design your arms to be 0 deg at that point. Then index the torsions when the bug is done so that is your rideheight.
You might need to adjust things from there but that should get you close. Take CV angle into account as well. The straighter they are at ride height the better. If you go more than 1/3 compressed that is not really a problem. I wouldn't go less than 1/3 though. You want some compression or "sag" to smooth out the ride. _________________ I'm just trying to recreate my RC buggy's as a kid to a real life buggy. |
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bugtub Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2006 Posts: 96
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Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:29 am Post subject: Re: camber angle |
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Thanks Cul-tech if I’m reading that right out of the full stroke 1/3 is for drop
oldschool5er I’ll post up pic’s of the jig as soon as its finished it may take some time I still gave some machining to do. I may take the lower stops off and use limit straps |
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Cul-tech Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2015 Posts: 49 Location: Colorado
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Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:37 am Post subject: Re: camber angle |
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I think we're on the same page.
If you have 12" travel, 0" at full droop and 12" at full compression.
When you set the vehicle down it would compress 4" before supporting the weight of the vehicle. That's what I'm calling 1/3 travel at rideheight.
This is just a rule of thumb though. On my bug the front is almost 1/2 and my rear is a little over 1/3.
My main point was figure out your rideheight first off CV's and travel. Then clock the torsions or adjust coils to meet that. _________________ I'm just trying to recreate my RC buggy's as a kid to a real life buggy. |
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cbeck Samba Member
Joined: January 14, 2014 Posts: 2494 Location: high ridge, mo
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Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:20 am Post subject: Re: camber angle |
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User jimmy hoffa on here built his own 2.5x2.5 in one of his build treads. Maybe you can find something useful there? _________________ My cut in half and rebuild thread
www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=647779 |
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bugtub Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2006 Posts: 96
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Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:50 am Post subject: Re: camber angle |
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cbeck wrote: |
User jimmy hoffa on here built his own 2.5x2.5 in one of his build treads. Maybe you can find something useful there? |
thanks just search jimmy hoffa and nothing comes up do you have a link |
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