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camber angle
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bugtub
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:18 am    Post subject: camber angle Reply with quote

Finally getting round to making some longer rear arms. Question is, at ride height what is the ideal camber angle if any?
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mr_bill
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:30 pm    Post subject: Re: camber angle Reply with quote

I would think 0 degrees ??
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bugtub
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:44 am    Post subject: Re: camber angle Reply with quote

Thanks bill I've looked at a lot of arms and they seem to give positive camber
this is not mine just an example
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cbeck
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:43 am    Post subject: Re: camber angle Reply with quote

I have the same rear arms as your example. Same situation. Bothers me, but not enough to hack em up. My eyes see it more than my camera does.
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At full stuff they seem to change camber to the other direction.
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oldschool5er
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:18 am    Post subject: Re: camber angle Reply with quote

It is something that is always a fight and for those of you that are using stock arms it is much worse when you reindex them for height and travel when going to a larger CV joint.

When you purchase 3x3 arms the builder needs to have a zero camber index built in, but unless you are paying for more expensive arms then off the shelf Appletree or the lower end 3x3 arms out there you are not going to get a zero camber from what I have seen.

IMO the only way to change the camber to zero at ride height without loosing up travel is to relocate the Pivot. Of course if you are building your own arms you can set them at zero if you have your jig table set up for it.

If you have off the shelf 3x3 you can try and modify the springplate attachment by elongating the mounting holes and pivoting the arm up then bolting it in that position, but you loose height and travel, from my experiance it is only a minor improvement if any.

On 3x3 I let mine go to negative camber under full compression as that is a minor inconvenience compared to positive camber at ride height and full droop. My DD Baja is beefed modified stock arms with a lot of positive camber even though the arms have been flipped. It doesn't bother me enough to cut out the stock pivot to fix it or mod the arm.
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bugtub
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:45 am    Post subject: Re: camber angle Reply with quote

I’m building my own jig so I can make the ride hight camber zero. What I don’t want to do is start cutting the pivot out of the beam. If I did start with zero camber. At full compression I will have more negative camber than cbeck has shown. Hence is it best to start with a little positive?
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oldschool5er
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:06 am    Post subject: Re: camber angle Reply with quote

It is a matter of where your suspension is riding at during your normal off roading. Since you are building your own arms I myself would shoot for zero camber at ride height with as little as possible of positive at full droop and not worry about the negative since it will be under full compression, but I like near zero camber because the buggys handle better at speed but all of this is determined on what type of driving you do. How much will negative camber at full compression affect the handling...not as much as positive camber will under off roading at speed. If your rock crawling well then thats a different story then maybe positive camber doesn't even matter that much lol.
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PhillipM
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:49 am    Post subject: Re: camber angle Reply with quote

As said above, it really does depend on what tyres and driving you do, if you're crawling it doesn't really matter, if you're climbing straight hills then you might even want it slightly negative so it squares up to zero under load for maximum traction. If you're running fast trails, pavement or high speed stuff, you probably want it negative through the entire travel just to compensate for the rollover on the big tyres we use.
I do speed events with mine so I run -2* at ride height as a compromise between traction and lateral grip and a bit of camber gain built into the pivots.
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pullstart
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:45 pm    Post subject: Re: camber angle Reply with quote

Hey bugtub, I recognize that rail... it's in my garage! Cool

From what I've learned and gathered, the camber in the rear isn't quite as much of a deal as toe in/out in the rear. I have been battling some toe in issues that I blamed on front camber/toe but the front camber can't be shimmed away and toe is spot on. Then I figured out that I have rear toe in, which seems to really follow the shape of the road, with no real warning of direction.
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Cul-tech
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:11 pm    Post subject: Re: camber angle Reply with quote

If I were you.....

Assuming at ride height you are about 1/3 compressed, I would design for 0 degrees at ride height.

At full compression you will have some negative camber, no problem.

At full droop you will have some positive camber, that sucks but not much you can do about it with angled pivots.

Be aware depending on your track width at full compression the tires might interfere with the body. I would check that before final welding.

Make your jig very strong! I made a set of arms once with a wimpy jig and the distortion from welding gave them toe in that they did not have when tacked together.
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Dale M.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:00 pm    Post subject: Re: camber angle Reply with quote

And the story is "customer" walked into a off-road shop and bought one trailing arm.... Conversation when something like this : "Dont you want a pair of arms"... Customer: "no, I am going to take it back to China and have them made".... ok.... Later when product hits market the copied side fits fine with proper camber (positive) the other side made up off the specification on master ended up with "negative camber".... How can that happen, seems positive camber was built in on arm "customer" took to be duplicated but company doing fabricating did not realise there was left and right arms with DIFFERENT built in camber so they made all the arms with half correct camber (positive) and half with wrong camber(negative)...

I would try for 0° at ride height and obviously it's going negative at full compression and positive at full extension...

Its the nature of the beast with anything that has a single pivot point...

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bugtub
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:46 am    Post subject: Re: camber angle Reply with quote

Thanks guys its settled then I’m going with zero camber. That’s going to make the jig a lot easier to set up.
Next question is going to be, what is the best/max angle (at ride height) for the spring plate or heim joint . I’ll be using Porsche cv’s .
is it better to start a new thread for this
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:53 am    Post subject: Re: camber angle Reply with quote

bugtub wrote:
Thanks guys its settled then I’m going with zero camber. That’s going to make the jig a lot easier to set up.
Next question is going to be, what is the best/max angle (at ride height) for the spring plate or heim joint . I’ll be using Porsche cv’s .
is it better to start a new thread for this


Nobody can tell you that because every car weighs differently. You won't even know that untill you set it up and put the weight of the car on it. Then you can adjust the torsion bars or coil overs. I'd be more worried about setting the full compression and droop travel that the CVS will handle.
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bugtub
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:06 am    Post subject: Re: camber angle Reply with quote

Vanillagurilla wrote:
bugtub wrote:
Thanks guys its settled then I’m going with zero camber. That’s going to make the jig a lot easier to set up.
Next question is going to be, what is the best/max angle (at ride height) for the spring plate or heim joint . I’ll be using Porsche cv’s .
is it better to start a new thread for this


Nobody can tell you that because every car weighs differently. You won't even know that untill you set it up and put the weight of the car on it. Then you can adjust the torsion bars or coil overs. I'd be more worried about setting the full compression and droop travel that the CVS will handle.


thanks Vanillagurilla. May be I’ve got this wrong but the spring plate angle will be about the same when settled on the ground regardless of weight, but the amount of preload to get that angle may be different
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oldschool5er
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:24 am    Post subject: Re: camber angle Reply with quote

I think you should keep this thread and show us your arm build. I think it is applicable to Camber and in fact there are only a few people on Samba that have actually built their own arms, pre-setting the camber, and done this on a regular basis, so I think it will be a well received thread. If you can take the time to post and document it will always be a benefit and info source to DIYers. Developing a well documented thread is more difficult for people because of the time needed to do it right so I say go for it.

As Vanilla said setting torsions is dependant on the car weight and capabilities of the CV angularity among a bunch of other considerations. In your case you mentioned 944 CV's which like the Thing/T4 afford more angularity over 002 bus stock , but if you polish them it can allow for even more and can push those angles near to 930 stock although not as strong. So I for one would like to know more about your setup as far as your planned shock mounts? Type of buggy/engine/trans for weight, Axles?, are you modifying the lower stop? etc. etc. all of these would affect how much useful travel you would get and would help the discussion in the thread.
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Cul-tech
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:39 am    Post subject: Re: camber angle Reply with quote

Here is how I've tackled this in the past.

I let the axles tell me my travel. They will most likely be the limiting factor.

1. Mock things up and determine you're droop based off max CV angle you are comfortable with.
2. Figure out your compression. This might be limited by the CV angles or the chassis might bottom out first. One or the other will determine your compression limit
3. Let's say you came up with 12" travel. 1/3 compression would put you at 4" compressed for rideheight. Mark that so you can always find it. Design your arms to be 0 deg at that point. Then index the torsions when the bug is done so that is your rideheight.

You might need to adjust things from there but that should get you close. Take CV angle into account as well. The straighter they are at ride height the better. If you go more than 1/3 compressed that is not really a problem. I wouldn't go less than 1/3 though. You want some compression or "sag" to smooth out the ride.
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bugtub
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:29 am    Post subject: Re: camber angle Reply with quote

Thanks Cul-tech if I’m reading that right out of the full stroke 1/3 is for drop
oldschool5er I’ll post up pic’s of the jig as soon as its finished it may take some time I still gave some machining to do. I may take the lower stops off and use limit straps
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:37 am    Post subject: Re: camber angle Reply with quote

I think we're on the same page.

If you have 12" travel, 0" at full droop and 12" at full compression.
When you set the vehicle down it would compress 4" before supporting the weight of the vehicle. That's what I'm calling 1/3 travel at rideheight.

This is just a rule of thumb though. On my bug the front is almost 1/2 and my rear is a little over 1/3.

My main point was figure out your rideheight first off CV's and travel. Then clock the torsions or adjust coils to meet that.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:20 am    Post subject: Re: camber angle Reply with quote

User jimmy hoffa on here built his own 2.5x2.5 in one of his build treads. Maybe you can find something useful there?
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:50 am    Post subject: Re: camber angle Reply with quote

cbeck wrote:
User jimmy hoffa on here built his own 2.5x2.5 in one of his build treads. Maybe you can find something useful there?


thanks just search jimmy hoffa and nothing comes up do you have a link
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