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Message |
Sharp64
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2015
Posts: 5304
Location: Central Florida
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 Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:00 pm Post subject: Re: will prices drop? |
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| marklaken wrote: |
e]
I think Classic Cars in general are bad investments.. |
The guy I talked to this past Saturday driving his 356D that he bought for $6k in 1970 would probably strongly disagree with you... He's turned down offers for $200k.
_________________
1960 Indigo Blue Ragtop (Blue Barry)
1967 Ghia
1985 Westy Money Pit
“...some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.” - Michael Caine |
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crankbait09
Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2016
Posts: 1304
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 2:56 pm Post subject: Re: will prices drop? |
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| hitest wrote: |
Bet on White.
If you're looking at which VWs will drop, stabilize or at most not appreciate anywhere near the rate of others- it's the white cars. No, lotus white deluxe buses don't count here.
I'm talking white '71 beetles, white '79 convertibles and '78 wannabe a cool convertible too beetle. White type 3s and 4s- forget it! Put a white '66 beetle on the corner and it will stay there longer than any java green or ruby red car. White early bays sell at much slower a rate than mustard yellow or red campers. White Things never sell for as much as orange or yellow. They're a fun car, so why have one colorless.
Now don't go pulling the race card either. Race vehicles always sell better when they're a color too. |
but white cars deserve a lil love too. |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16879
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:11 pm Post subject: Re: will prices drop? |
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| Sharp64 wrote: |
| marklaken wrote: |
e]
I think Classic Cars in general are bad investments.. |
The guy I talked to this past Saturday driving his 356D that he bought for $6k in 1970 would probably strongly disagree with you... He's turned down offers for $200k. |
I dunno.....
I mean, this may be a case of strike while the irons hot. again, what will it be worth in another 10 years? what if the bottom drops out and it's worth 30k? what will the interest level be in that car?
I have a standing offer of 70k on my 70 deluxe (bus) and I have turned it down. truth be told, 70k is not a life altering amount of money to me....may be the same to the 200k guy as well. BUT if in the end it's worth zero dollars it will still be worth something to me....I have it, and my neighbor doesn't. I've never looked at this stuff as an investment
seeing how many of these vw's have been poorly 'restored' I can't imagine the prices going to the moon for what was essentially a commuter/appliance car....original/correctly restored examples will hold value for sure but I think that as the generations of enthusiasts die off, so will the interest.
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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EverettB 
Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000
Posts: 69825
Location: Phoenix Metro
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:21 pm Post subject: Re: will prices drop? |
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| Sharp64 wrote: |
| marklaken wrote: |
e]
I think Classic Cars in general are bad investments.. |
The guy I talked to this past Saturday driving his 356D that he bought for $6k in 1970 would probably strongly disagree with you... He's turned down offers for $200k. |
He's been lucky stuff went up so much recently.
$6000 in 1970 invested in a normal stock market account is far above that amount.
No maintenance or storage costs either.
No car fun along the way though.
_________________
How to Post Photos
Everett Barnes - [email protected] | My wanted ads
"Water is the only drink for a wise man" | "Communication prevents complaints"
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery! |
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Sharp64
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2015
Posts: 5304
Location: Central Florida
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:41 am Post subject: Re: will prices drop? |
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| EverettB wrote: |
| Sharp64 wrote: |
| marklaken wrote: |
e]
I think Classic Cars in general are bad investments.. |
The guy I talked to this past Saturday driving his 356D that he bought for $6k in 1970 would probably strongly disagree with you... He's turned down offers for $200k. |
He's been lucky stuff went up so much recently.
$6000 in 1970 invested in a normal stock market account is far above that amount.
No maintenance or storage costs either.
No car fun along the way though. |
True and it’s somewhat of an anomolay I’m sure. I’m not very familiar with the car, but according to the owner it was a very limited production and valued upwards of $3-400k. I don’t keep up with these prices, but the guy seemed like he knew what he was talking about. With a 911 motor conversion, pushing about 3-350hp it sounded like an E ticket ride for sure.
Having gone back and forth with the OP through PM a few times I think the concern may be more around whether prices will seasonally go up or down or if the market will drop out anytime soon. In either, I would say it’s really hard to tell. I see sellers advertising “as the weather gets better the price goes up”, but I don’t keep track close enough to know if this is factual or seller bullshit.
_________________
1960 Indigo Blue Ragtop (Blue Barry)
1967 Ghia
1985 Westy Money Pit
“...some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.” - Michael Caine
Last edited by Sharp64 on Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:51 am; edited 1 time in total |
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EverettB
Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000
Posts: 69825
Location: Phoenix Metro
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:22 am Post subject: Re: will prices drop? |
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| Sharp64 wrote: |
| I see sellers advertising “as the weather gets better the price goes up”, but I don’t keep track close enough to know if this is factual or seller bullshit. |
I think running cars do sell better when you can drive them, if you live in an area with poor winter weather / road salt / whatever
I've seen people saying they will wait until Spring to sell in the past so maybe there is something to it - I don't know for sure either.
_________________
How to Post Photos
Everett Barnes - [email protected] | My wanted ads
"Water is the only drink for a wise man" | "Communication prevents complaints"
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery! |
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Sharp64
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2015
Posts: 5304
Location: Central Florida
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:49 am Post subject: Re: will prices drop? |
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| EverettB wrote: |
| Sharp64 wrote: |
| I see sellers advertising “as the weather gets better the price goes up”, but I don’t keep track close enough to know if this is factual or seller bullshit. |
I think running cars do sell better when you can drive them, if you live in an area with poor winter weather / road salt / whatever
I've seen people saying they will wait until Spring to sell in the past so maybe there is something to it - I don't know for sure either. |
One in particular I remember seeing was in Oklahoma and a vert, but I’ve seen it over times. I live in the land of perpetual sunshine so personally I think Winter is a better time to sell a car with no AC then when it’s 95* with 90% humidity. 😂
_________________
1960 Indigo Blue Ragtop (Blue Barry)
1967 Ghia
1985 Westy Money Pit
“...some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.” - Michael Caine |
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danfromsyr
Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004
Posts: 15144
Location: Syracuse, NY
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:10 pm Post subject: Re: will prices drop? |
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can't even look at convertibles up here till after mother's day.
_________________
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Helfen
Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2009
Posts: 3450
Location: Vulcania
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:03 pm Post subject: Re: will prices drop? |
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| EverettB wrote: |
| Zeen wrote: |
| Helfen wrote: |
| .... As far as new cars go, the middle and lower class cars will, like the middle class go away. We've already seen this happening with the deletion middle class cars like Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Mercury, Saturn etc. |
Think about this one a little longer. It's not some conspiracy, the carmakers would love to sell what you call "middle class cars". The Taurus, Fusion, Camry, et al are still there, and they are very good. But the middle class customers would rather take on more debt and drive an SUV. |
I didn't understand that post either, I thought those cars mentioned lost market share and stopped being made. Maybe because they were shitty. 
Don't middle class people buy the smaller Hondas/Toyotas/Mazdas/etc. now? My mom has a Mazda 3, she had a Honda Civic before that.
What price range is a "middle class" car?
My wife has a used Mazda SUV. I checked and it's $24K new vs. $18K for the little Mazda 3 so definitely more money for the SUV but I don't know if $24K is out of the range for a middle class person? It seems like a zillion people have Honda Accords - those are around $24K too. |
When Pontiac was discontinued in 2012 it was selling more than Buick Division. Pontiac was in transformation at that time, going to rear wheel drive performance platforms. What killed Pontiac was the U.S. government. The government's position was you take the bail out money and Pontiac goes. Keep Pontiac and you won't get the money.
To understand the GM philosophy about GM brands you need to study GM brands and pricing structure back as far as the 1920's to see the big picture. |
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Helfen
Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2009
Posts: 3450
Location: Vulcania
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:08 pm Post subject: Re: will prices drop? |
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| marklaken wrote: |
| crankbait09 wrote: |
| Not that the current prices of the classic beetles will stop me from purchasing one........but does anyone see the selling prices for the classic beetles ever dropping? Sure if we have an economy implosion again, they may. But I can only imagine they will keep going up and up as each year goes by. |
I think Classic Cars in general are bad investments. If you can find those diamonds in the rough and buy them for a song, sure they are decent "investment", but the internet has spoiled a lot of that. In general, classic cars are no different than baseball cards and market pricing is based purely on supply and demand. So, in order to keep pricing strong on a fixed supply, demand needs to remain strong. So best raise your kids in VWs so we can sell our shit later on down the road. |
Classic cars will always be good investment as long as you are talking about real classic cars; below is the list
A.C.
All 1925-1940
Adler
1928-1934 Standard 8
Alfa Romeo*
All
Alvis
Speed 20, 3 1/2 litre,
Speed 25 and 4.3 litre
Amilcar
Application Considered
Apperson
1925-1926 Straightaway Eight
Armstrong-Siddeley
1924-1933 Model 30;
1933-1939 Special
Aston-Martin
All 1927-1939
Auburn
All 8- and 12-cylinder
Austro-Daimler*
All
Ballot
2LS, 2LT, 2LTS, RH,
RH2 AND RH3
Bentley
All 1919-1948
Benz
1925-1926, 10/30, 11/40, 16/50,16/50 Sport
Biddle
All 1915-1922
Blackhawk
All
B.M.W.
327, 328, 327/8 and 335
Brewster
All 1915-1925 and 1934-1936
Brough Superior
All 1934-1939
Bucciali
TAV 8, TAV 30,
TAV 12 and Double Huit
Bugatti
All except types 52 and 68
Buick
All 1931-1942 Series 90;
All 1931-1933 and
1936-1939 Series 80;
1940 Series 80 Limited
Cadillac
1915-1935; All 12 and 16;
1936-1948 -63, 65, 67, 70, 72, 75, 80, 85, 90;
1938-1947 -60 Special;
1940-1947 -62 Series
Chadwick
All 1915-1916
Chrysler
1926 through 1932 Imperial and Series 80, Includes Series CG, CH, CL;
1932-1939 Custom Imperial Series - CL, CX, CW, C-3, C-11, C-15, C-20, C-24;
1934-1937 Airflow Imperial Eight models CV, C2, C10, C17;
1940-1948 Crown Imperial - Includes Series C-27, C-30N, C-33, C-37, C-40;
Newports and Thunderbolts;
All 1941-1948 Town & Country
Cole
1916-1925 All 8-cylinder
Cord
All
Corinthian
All 1922-1923
Cunningham
All V Series from 1916
Dagmar
1922-1926, 6-70 and Series 6-80
Daimler
All 8- and 12-cylinder, 6-cylinder, 3-1/2 Litre and larger, 1925-1934
Daniels
All 1916-1924;
8–1920-1926 Model D
Darracq
See Talbot
Delage
1924-1926 GL and GLS Models, Model D-8
Delahaye
Series 135, 145, 148, 165
Delaunay Belleville
6-cylinder
Doble
All
Duesenberg
All
duPont
All 1919-1931
Elcar
1925-1933, 8-80, 8-81, 8-90, 8-91, 8-92, 120, 130 and 140
Excelsior
1919-1926 Adex Models, 1925-1932 Albert 1 (Premier Models)
Farman
All 1925-1931
Fiat
1923-1927 Model 519;
1928-1931 Model 525;
1938-1940 Model 2800, Except Military Vehicles
Fox
All 1921-1923
Franklin*
All models except 1933-1934 Olympic; Pre-1925 please apply
Gardner
1925-1926 Line 8;
1925-1926 Model 8A;
1926-1927 Model 8B;
1927 Model 890;
1927 Model 90;
1928 Models 8-85, 8-90;
1928 Model 130;
1928-1929 Models 85, 95;
1929 Models 125-135;
1930 Models 145,150;
1930-1931 Model 150;
1931 Models 148-158
Georges Irat
1922-1929 2 Litre & 3 Litre; 1930-1934 Lycoming 6- and 8-cylinder, Except military Vehicles
Graham-Paige/Graham
1928-1929 Series 835, 837;
1930 Series 837;
1930 – All Custom 8;
1931 – Custom 8 834
HAL
All 1916-1918
Heine-Velox
All 1921-1922
Hispano-Suiza
H6 from 1919; All French models; Spanish models T56, T56BIS, T64
Horch*
All
Hotchkiss
1929-1940 All 3 & 3-1/2 Litre, AM80, AM80S, 620, 680, 686 Paris-Nice, 686 Grand Sport
Hudson
1929-Series L
Humber
1930 Pullman model 6
Hupmobile
1930-1932, Series H and H-255, U and U237
Invicta*
All through 1938
Isotta-Fraschini
All from 1919 except Tipo 8C Monterosa
Itala *
All
Jaguar
1946-1948 - 2-1/2 litre,
3-1/2 litre (Mark IV)
Jensen
All 1936-1939 except 2 1/4 Litre
Jordan
1929-1931 Models G, 90, Great Line 90, and Speed Way Series Z
Julian
All
Kissel
All 6- and 12-cylinder cars
1915-1924;
1923-1928 6-55;
1925-1927 8-75;
1928 8-90 and 8-90 White Eagle;
1929-1930 8-95 White Eagle;
1929-1931 8-126
Kleiber
1926 Model 212;
1927 Model 178;
1928 Model 133;
1929 Model 37
Lafayette
All 1921-1924
Lagonda
All models through 1940 except 1934-1940 Rapier, Two Post-War V-12
Lanchester
1919-1931 Models 21, 23, 30 and 40
Lancia
Dilambda and Astura, 1928-1939
LaSalle
All 1927 through 1933
Leach
All 1920-1923
Lincoln
L, from 1920 KA, KB, and K, 1941 168 H and 1942 268 H
Lincoln Continental
All
Locomobile
All 1915-1924;
All left hand drive models 48 and all model 90;
1927-1929 Model 8-80;
1929 Model 8-88
Lozier
All 1915-1916
Marmon
All Model 41, 48, and 34
1915-1924;
All 12- & 16-cylinder, 1925-1926 D-74, 1927 E-75, 1928 75, 1930 Big 8, 1931 88 and Big 8
Maserati
Application Considered
Maybach*
All
McFarlan
All 1915-1924, TV6 and 8
Mercedes*
All
Mercedes-Benz
All 230 and up,
K, S, SS, SSK, SSKL,
Grosser and Mannheim
Mercer
All
M.G.
1935-1939 SA, 1938-1939 WA
Miller
1928 & 1932
Minerva
All except 4-cylinder
Nash
1930 Series 490;
1931 Series 890;
1932 Series 990 and 1090;
1933 Series 1190;
1934 Series 1290;
1940 Sakhnoffsky Special Cabriolet
National
All 1916-1919
Owen Magnetic
All 1915-1921
Packard
All 1915-1924 except Model 116;
All 6-cylinder 226-233, 326-333, 426-433, 526-533;
All 8-cylinder 1923-1934;
All 12-cylinder 1932-1939;
1935 Models 1200 through 1205, 1207 and 1208;
1936 Models 1400 through 1405, 1407 and 1408;
1937 Models 1500 through 1502 and 1506 through 1508; 1938 Models 1603 through 1605, 1607 and 1608;
1939 Models 1703, 1705, 1707, and 1708;
1940 Models 1803-1808;
1941 Models 1903-1908;
1942 Models 2003-2008;
1946-1947 Models 2103, 2106 and 2126;
All Darrin-bodied
Paige
All 6-55, 6-66 1916-1927
Pathfinder
All 1916-1917
Peerless
1925 Series 67;
1926-1928 Series 69;
1929 Series 8-125;
1930-1931 Custom 8;
1932 Deluxe Custom 8
Pierce-Arrow
All 1915-1924; 1921 Series 32;
1922 and up Series 33;
All from 1925
Railton
Application Considered
Renault
45 HP (40CV) to 1928, 40 hp (41CV) Reinastella, Reinasport, 1929-1934, 8-cylinder Nervahuit, Nervastella, Nervasport (Suprastella)
Reo
1931-1934, Royale 8-cylinder
ReVere
All 1918-1926
Richelieu
All 1922-1923
Roamer
All Rochester-Duesenberg 4-cylinder;
1925 6-54E;
1925-1929 8-88;
1929-1931 8-125
Rohr
1928-1935 R, RA, F and FK
Rolls-Royce
All 1915-1948
Ruxton
All
Squire*
All
S.S. and SS Jaguar
1932-1940 S.S. 1, S.S. 90, SS Jaguar and SS Jaguar 100
Simplex (and those also known as Simplex-Crane)
All 1915-1924
Stearns Knight
All 6- and 8-cylinder
1915-1924
Stevens Duryea
All 1915-1927
Steyr
1923-1929 Type VI Sport, VI Klausen, SS Klausen and Austria
Studebaker
1928 8-cylinder President;
1929-1933 President except Model 82
Stutz
All except 1915 HCS
Sunbeam
8-cylinder and 3 litre twin cam
Talbot
(GB) 105 and 110;
(F), Darracq (GB),
Talbot-Lago (F) – 8-cylinder 1930-1935;
4 Litre 6-cylinder 1936-1939;
4-1/2 Litre 1946-1948
Tatra
1927-1948 Models T70, T70A, T80, T77, T77A and T87 with prewar styling
Templar
All 1915-1924
Triumph
Dolomite 8 and Gloria 6
Vauxhall
25-70 and 30-98
Voisin*
All
Wasp
All 1919-1924
Wills Sainte Claire
All
Willys-Knight
Series 66, 66A, 66B Custom bodied only (Considered by application)
Winton
All 1915-1924 |
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iowegian
Samba Curmudgeon
Joined: February 16, 2005
Posts: 9829
Location: Somewhere between Dubuque and Keokuk
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:20 am Post subject: Re: will prices drop? |
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That is quite the list you have there.
It must have taken you many hours to compile it. |
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Zeen
Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2004
Posts: 1308
Location: The Sunny Part of Michigan
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:06 am Post subject: Re: will prices drop? |
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|
| Helfen wrote: |
| EverettB wrote: |
| Zeen wrote: |
| Helfen wrote: |
| .... As far as new cars go, the middle and lower class cars will, like the middle class go away. We've already seen this happening with the deletion middle class cars like Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Mercury, Saturn etc. |
Think about this one a little longer. It's not some conspiracy, the carmakers would love to sell what you call "middle class cars". The Taurus, Fusion, Camry, et al are still there, and they are very good. But the middle class customers would rather take on more debt and drive an SUV. |
I didn't understand that post either, I thought those cars mentioned lost market share and stopped being made. Maybe because they were shitty.
Don't middle class people buy the smaller Hondas/Toyotas/Mazdas/etc. now? My mom has a Mazda 3, she had a Honda Civic before that.
What price range is a "middle class" car?
My wife has a used Mazda SUV. I checked and it's $24K new vs. $18K for the little Mazda 3 so definitely more money for the SUV but I don't know if $24K is out of the range for a middle class person? It seems like a zillion people have Honda Accords - those are around $24K too. |
When Pontiac was discontinued in 2012 it was selling more than Buick Division. Pontiac was in transformation at that time, going to rear wheel drive performance platforms. What killed Pontiac was the U.S. government. The government's position was you take the bail out money and Pontiac goes. Keep Pontiac and you won't get the money.
To understand the GM philosophy about GM brands you need to study GM brands and pricing structure back as far as the 1920's to see the big picture. |
No. GM had too many brands without enough differentiation to justify the cost and complexity of managing them. It would have made more sense in the U.S. market to keep Pontiac, but Buick is huge in China, so Pontiac got the ax. You've seen Chevy emphasize performance a bit more to cover the sportier segment that Pontiac was meant to represent.
_________________
The consequences of your decisions should not be confused with fate. |
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Helfen
Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2009
Posts: 3450
Location: Vulcania
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:34 am Post subject: Re: will prices drop? |
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| iowegian wrote: |
That is quite the list you have there.
It must have taken you many hours to compile it. |
No, it comes from the source "CCCA" |
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Helfen
Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2009
Posts: 3450
Location: Vulcania
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:38 am Post subject: Re: will prices drop? |
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| Zeen wrote: |
| Helfen wrote: |
| EverettB wrote: |
| Zeen wrote: |
| Helfen wrote: |
| .... As far as new cars go, the middle and lower class cars will, like the middle class go away. We've already seen this happening with the deletion middle class cars like Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Mercury, Saturn etc. |
Think about this one a little longer. It's not some conspiracy, the carmakers would love to sell what you call "middle class cars". The Taurus, Fusion, Camry, et al are still there, and they are very good. But the middle class customers would rather take on more debt and drive an SUV. |
I didn't understand that post either, I thought those cars mentioned lost market share and stopped being made. Maybe because they were shitty.
Don't middle class people buy the smaller Hondas/Toyotas/Mazdas/etc. now? My mom has a Mazda 3, she had a Honda Civic before that.
What price range is a "middle class" car?
My wife has a used Mazda SUV. I checked and it's $24K new vs. $18K for the little Mazda 3 so definitely more money for the SUV but I don't know if $24K is out of the range for a middle class person? It seems like a zillion people have Honda Accords - those are around $24K too. |
When Pontiac was discontinued in 2012 it was selling more than Buick Division. Pontiac was in transformation at that time, going to rear wheel drive performance platforms. What killed Pontiac was the U.S. government. The government's position was you take the bail out money and Pontiac goes. Keep Pontiac and you won't get the money.
To understand the GM philosophy about GM brands you need to study GM brands and pricing structure back as far as the 1920's to see the big picture. |
No. GM had too many brands without enough differentiation to justify the cost and complexity of managing them. It would have made more sense in the U.S. market to keep Pontiac, but Buick is huge in China, so Pontiac got the ax. You've seen Chevy emphasize performance a bit more to cover the sportier segment that Pontiac was meant to represent. |
No, Pontiac had just started to become a real performance car with rear wheel drive platforms way different from Chevrolet. Pontiac was not able to prove it because of not enough time and not all of the product was ready so the government (not being to think ahead) made the decision to let it go. |
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Zeen
Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2004
Posts: 1308
Location: The Sunny Part of Michigan
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:22 pm Post subject: Re: will prices drop? |
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|
| Helfen wrote: |
| Zeen wrote: |
| Helfen wrote: |
| EverettB wrote: |
| Zeen wrote: |
| Helfen wrote: |
| .... As far as new cars go, the middle and lower class cars will, like the middle class go away. We've already seen this happening with the deletion middle class cars like Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Mercury, Saturn etc. |
Think about this one a little longer. It's not some conspiracy, the carmakers would love to sell what you call "middle class cars". The Taurus, Fusion, Camry, et al are still there, and they are very good. But the middle class customers would rather take on more debt and drive an SUV. |
I didn't understand that post either, I thought those cars mentioned lost market share and stopped being made. Maybe because they were shitty.
Don't middle class people buy the smaller Hondas/Toyotas/Mazdas/etc. now? My mom has a Mazda 3, she had a Honda Civic before that.
What price range is a "middle class" car?
My wife has a used Mazda SUV. I checked and it's $24K new vs. $18K for the little Mazda 3 so definitely more money for the SUV but I don't know if $24K is out of the range for a middle class person? It seems like a zillion people have Honda Accords - those are around $24K too. |
When Pontiac was discontinued in 2012 it was selling more than Buick Division. Pontiac was in transformation at that time, going to rear wheel drive performance platforms. What killed Pontiac was the U.S. government. The government's position was you take the bail out money and Pontiac goes. Keep Pontiac and you won't get the money.
To understand the GM philosophy about GM brands you need to study GM brands and pricing structure back as far as the 1920's to see the big picture. |
No. GM had too many brands without enough differentiation to justify the cost and complexity of managing them. It would have made more sense in the U.S. market to keep Pontiac, but Buick is huge in China, so Pontiac got the ax. You've seen Chevy emphasize performance a bit more to cover the sportier segment that Pontiac was meant to represent. |
No, Pontiac had just started to become a real performance car with rear wheel drive platforms way different from Chevrolet. Pontiac was not able to prove it because of not enough time and not all of the product was ready so the government (not being to think ahead) made the decision to let it go. |
I assume you're talking about the GTO, based on the Holden Monaro made in Australia. It was indeed a good car, but it just never sold. Too European in its styling to appeal to American muscle car buyers, and too American of a brand for European muscle car buyers. Perhaps it could have been successful if GM had spent the money to completely re-do it for the American market, but they didn't have the cash. And again, there is the problem of investing in a car model that overlaps with other similar cars. Chevy is doing well with its rwd performance cars, and they have the volume to be profitable. No need to dilute the engineering and marketing investment across another brand.
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The consequences of your decisions should not be confused with fate. |
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Helfen
Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2009
Posts: 3450
Location: Vulcania
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:42 pm Post subject: Re: will prices drop? |
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| Zeen wrote: |
| Helfen wrote: |
| Zeen wrote: |
| Helfen wrote: |
| EverettB wrote: |
| Zeen wrote: |
| Helfen wrote: |
| .... As far as new cars go, the middle and lower class cars will, like the middle class go away. We've already seen this happening with the deletion middle class cars like Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Mercury, Saturn etc. |
Think about this one a little longer. It's not some conspiracy, the carmakers would love to sell what you call "middle class cars". The Taurus, Fusion, Camry, et al are still there, and they are very good. But the middle class customers would rather take on more debt and drive an SUV. |
I didn't understand that post either, I thought those cars mentioned lost market share and stopped being made. Maybe because they were shitty.
Don't middle class people buy the smaller Hondas/Toyotas/Mazdas/etc. now? My mom has a Mazda 3, she had a Honda Civic before that.
What price range is a "middle class" car?
My wife has a used Mazda SUV. I checked and it's $24K new vs. $18K for the little Mazda 3 so definitely more money for the SUV but I don't know if $24K is out of the range for a middle class person? It seems like a zillion people have Honda Accords - those are around $24K too. |
When Pontiac was discontinued in 2012 it was selling more than Buick Division. Pontiac was in transformation at that time, going to rear wheel drive performance platforms. What killed Pontiac was the U.S. government. The government's position was you take the bail out money and Pontiac goes. Keep Pontiac and you won't get the money.
To understand the GM philosophy about GM brands you need to study GM brands and pricing structure back as far as the 1920's to see the big picture. |
No. GM had too many brands without enough differentiation to justify the cost and complexity of managing them. It would have made more sense in the U.S. market to keep Pontiac, but Buick is huge in China, so Pontiac got the ax. You've seen Chevy emphasize performance a bit more to cover the sportier segment that Pontiac was meant to represent. |
No, Pontiac had just started to become a real performance car with rear wheel drive platforms way different from Chevrolet. Pontiac was not able to prove it because of not enough time and not all of the product was ready so the government (not being to think ahead) made the decision to let it go. |
I assume you're talking about the GTO, based on the Holden Monaro made in Australia. It was indeed a good car, but it just never sold. Too European in its styling to appeal to American muscle car buyers, and too American of a brand for European muscle car buyers. Perhaps it could have been successful if GM had spent the money to completely re-do it for the American market, but they didn't have the cash. And again, there is the problem of investing in a car model that overlaps with other similar cars. Chevy is doing well with its rwd performance cars, and they have the volume to be profitable. No need to dilute the engineering and marketing investment across another brand. |
Nope. |
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Zundfolge1432
Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004
Posts: 12468
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:30 pm Post subject: Re: will prices drop? |
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| iowegian wrote: |
That is quite the list you have there.
It must have taken you many hours to compile it. |
This is a list according to who? I see a lot of cars missing that are classics which are appreciating in value, Studebaker Avanti. Your list is a good start, did you know they make a line of coloring books for adults now?  |
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Helfen
Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2009
Posts: 3450
Location: Vulcania
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:51 pm Post subject: Re: will prices drop? |
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| Zundfolge1432 wrote: |
| iowegian wrote: |
That is quite the list you have there.
It must have taken you many hours to compile it. |
This is a list according to who? I see a lot of cars missing that are classics which are appreciating in value, Studebaker Avanti. Your list is a good start, did you know they make a line of coloring books for adults now? |
CCCA, Classic as a “Fine” or “Distinctive” automobile, American or foreign built, produced between 1915 and 1948. Generally, a Classic was high-priced when new and was built in limited quantities. Other factors, including engine displacement, custom coachwork and luxury accessories, such as power brakes, power clutch, and “one-shot” or automatic lubrication systems, help determine whether a car is considered to be a Classic.
According to AACA a Avanti as long as it's not modified is a Antique car, and though I haven't checked lately might be as long as it's not modified be on the Milestone Car Society's list.
AACA cars are antique cars that are 25 years or older that are not modified. Many Classic cars from the list I produced also participate in AACA events, but obviously not all AACA cars can participate in a CCCA event. |
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vwinnovator
Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2005
Posts: 1555
Location: Still doing it in the back of your VW
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:00 pm Post subject: Re: will prices drop? |
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| Helfen wrote: |
| Zundfolge1432 wrote: |
| iowegian wrote: |
That is quite the list you have there.
It must have taken you many hours to compile it. |
This is a list according to who? I see a lot of cars missing that are classics which are appreciating in value, Studebaker Avanti. Your list is a good start, did you know they make a line of coloring books for adults now? |
CCCA, Classic as a “Fine” or “Distinctive” automobile, American or foreign built, produced between 1915 and 1948. Generally, a Classic was high-priced when new and was built in limited quantities. Other factors, including engine displacement, custom coachwork and luxury accessories, such as power brakes, power clutch, and “one-shot” or automatic lubrication systems, help determine whether a car is considered to be a Classic.
According to AACA a Avanti as long as it's not modified is a Antique car, and though I haven't checked lately might be as long as it's not modified be on the Milestone Car Society's list.
AACA cars are antique cars that are 25 years or older that are not modified. Many Classic cars from the list I produced also participate in AACA events, but obviously not all AACA cars can participate in a CCCA event. |
and it doesn't seem to have any VW's on it..... |
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Helfen
Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2009
Posts: 3450
Location: Vulcania
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:14 pm Post subject: Re: will prices drop? |
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| vwinnovator wrote: |
| Helfen wrote: |
| Zundfolge1432 wrote: |
| iowegian wrote: |
That is quite the list you have there.
It must have taken you many hours to compile it. |
This is a list according to who? I see a lot of cars missing that are classics which are appreciating in value, Studebaker Avanti. Your list is a good start, did you know they make a line of coloring books for adults now? |
CCCA, Classic as a “Fine” or “Distinctive” automobile, American or foreign built, produced between 1915 and 1948. Generally, a Classic was high-priced when new and was built in limited quantities. Other factors, including engine displacement, custom coachwork and luxury accessories, such as power brakes, power clutch, and “one-shot” or automatic lubrication systems, help determine whether a car is considered to be a Classic.
According to AACA a Avanti as long as it's not modified is a Antique car, and though I haven't checked lately might be as long as it's not modified be on the Milestone Car Society's list.
AACA cars are antique cars that are 25 years or older that are not modified. Many Classic cars from the list I produced also participate in AACA events, but obviously not all AACA cars can participate in a CCCA event. |
and it doesn't seem to have any VW's on it..... |
VW's compete all the time at AACA events. VW's 25 years or older and stock can compete at AACA events. |
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