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Type 4 engine forensics
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udidwht
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:13 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine forensics Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
raygreenwood wrote:
Vanagon type 4's outlast a type 4 in a type 4 car?......never seen one yet that did.

Ray


200-300K miles is fairly common for a Vanagon aircooled that was half way maintained, same for a late Bay with hydraulic lifters. Solids are fine assuming they get maintained regularly, but this is a big "if" that doesn't happen in real life. From what I remember the Type 4 car made about the fastest trip from the showroom floor to the wrecking yard of anything VW (and most other manufactures) produced in that era, I know that I stripped parts off of many.


When VW was filming commercials in California (Sierra Hwy area) 2 new Vanagons dropped valves during filming.
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Last edited by udidwht on Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:50 am; edited 1 time in total
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furgo
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:35 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine forensics Reply with quote

As usual, thanks all for the great insights. That even simple questions uncover this amount of knowledge just makes my respect for machinists, builders and otherwise enthusiasts that have accumulated aircooled experience through the years grow.

raygreenwood wrote:


Yes.....the tips of the valves "mushroom" from wear a very small amount so they catch or get tight when pulled through the guides. The harder the tips the less of this you get....but even stellite tips and/or hardened welded insert tips (most factory valves were this way) eventually get a small amount of expansion at the tip.

Using Porsche swivel feet virtually eliminates this expansion. Typically if valves are being reused a quick facing grind to the tip taking off just a few thousandths will remove this swelled part.


In case, like me, someone reading this didn't know about swivel foot adjuster screws, these are two good threads that discuss them:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
Picture from Samba member deprivation

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=643049
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=637598

In the context of this particular engine having hydraulic lifters, I also noticed something worth mentioning wrt. swivel foot adjusters:

asiab3 wrote:
As always in threads about swivel feet, DO NOT use them with hydraulic lifters. Even the best quality swivel feet adjusters need lash to properly lubricate themselves. The preload of a hydraulic lifter valve train is not compatible with swivel feet.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:51 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine forensics Reply with quote

Yes.....that is correct. I have never personally tried swivel feet with hydraulics.....primarily because I would never use hydraulics in an aircooled VW Wink ......but I know several experienced bulders over the years who have tried them and said largely tbe same thing that asiab3 stated. They tended to wear out fast due to lubrication issues. Ray
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:02 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine forensics Reply with quote

I was up late last night,
And thinking about this thread.

Said a few things that I regret,
And wanted to make amends..












Didn't get the number of syllables right!


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:04 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine forensics Reply with quote

Sand the valve stems down
Three keeper grooves get burred up
Valve out no gouges
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:06 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine forensics Reply with quote

Jake always said so,
Hydraulic lifters do suck!
When does your seat drop?
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:09 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine forensics Reply with quote

Are your valves any good?
Measure the OD of stem.
Too skinny means bad.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:12 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine forensics Reply with quote

Are there cracks hiding?
Everything must be blasted,
Before they will show.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:15 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine forensics Reply with quote

Re-use those old heads?
The Ghetto Oven Head Test
Will show loose valve seats.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:27 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine forensics Reply with quote

Clatter wrote:
I was up late last night,
And thinking about this thread.

Said a few things that I regret,
And wanted to make amends..












Didn't get the number of syllables right!


The med cart comes by
Nurse hangs a fresh colostomy
Big hugs all around


I rarely regret what I post....but in light of this thread and several others....I have made a personal promise to TRY not to get bitchy with people no matter what I think or what they say.
Its just not worth effort and time waste to get worked up....and its not worth the shit storm is causes for everyone involved.

Quote:
Clatter said: Sand the valve stems down
Three keeper grooves get burred up
Valve out no gouges


Did you mean sand the tips...or the stems themselves?

The problem with sanding the stems....on high quality valves....is that they are usually chrome plated (in some cases stellite or inconel...but not much of that in the ACVW arena). And...on budget valves....this plating is THIN....like maybe 2-3 microns. Sanding it even with 2000 grit can take a lot off.

A lot of the manly valves are double chrome plated and maybe 5-8 microns of chrome.

Yes on the keeper grooves getting burred from wear. When they are sharp....just discard the valve. There is no way to reshape the grooves to replace lost metal.

No one doing normal builds for ACVW ...outside of racing...is using exotic enough or expensive enough valves to be worth trying to reuse them north of 30k miles. Its just too much risk. They have a lifespan.

You can get Manley 5000 series Racemaster stainless steel valves with Stellite tips and double chromed stems for about $75-80 per set of 4 for either intakes or Exhaust.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Or you can get Swiss made Intervalve brand from Pelican for about $55 a set of 4 for intakes and about $110 a set of 4 for exhaust.

https://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/SuperCat/0981/POR_0981_ENGCYL_pg1.htm#item3
About the same cost overall for either. Of course...these are in 2.0L size of 42 x 36...which work dead on well for 1.8L...and I have used this size for ages in my tweaked 1.7L engines.

Ray
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:20 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine forensics Reply with quote

I only regret that I didn't remember to get my syllable count right for a proper haiku.

For that, I'll apologize..
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:22 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine forensics Reply with quote

Sand all used valve ends.
Doesn't matter tips or grooves.
They both have a burr.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:33 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine forensics Reply with quote

mill file flat against the side of the valve stem at the end while turning it a little. sanding follows contours. Also if the valves are reused the valve grinding machine is used to retip the ends. Have to be square with the stem. What gets taken off is equal to the depth that the new seats lower the valve. If the tip is too close to the keepers or if the keeper grooves are worn the valves are junk.

I seriously hope this information is used for education and not trying to do a valve job on a set of heads. DIY valve jobs are kinda like DIY brain surgery. The guy who says sure I do mine all the time also walks with a limp, his left hand spasms, he slurs words that start with a Z, and his left eye twitches.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine forensics Reply with quote

SGKent wrote:
I seriously hope this information is used for education and not trying to do a valve job on a set of heads. DIY valve jobs are kinda like DIY brain surgery. The guy who says sure I do mine all the time also walks with a limp, his left hand spasms, he slurs words that start with a Z, and his left eye twitches.


That's going to give me nightmares tonight! Smile

Mostly, I was interested in knowing whether the mushroming of the tips I saw on the intake valves was common and what caused it, which you all have already answered, along with advice on how to remove them safely.

I'll do the measuring as Clatter suggested, as I guess something can be learnt from that. As per doing a valve job, neither have I the skills nor the equipment. I don't think the valves can be reused though, but I can post some more pictures to gather opinions. In any case, the only thing I could see doing on cylinder heads on my own would be lapping valves to the seats, but even that I'm not sure I'd trust myself doing.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine forensics Reply with quote

Clatter wrote:
I only regret that I didn't remember to get my syllable count right for a proper haiku.

For that, I'll apologize..


Ok, I thought I was losing it...I was like WTF?! Now we're doing Haiku?

My iambic pentameter is a bit rusty...not even going to try...
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:35 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine forensics Reply with quote

While on the subject of heads, I was curious as to what capacity the combustion chambers had. I don't think I've seen this published from VW for 2.0 l heads anywhere, but I had read somewhere that they were around 50 cm3.

I could not find a c.c. kit for Type 4 2.0 l heads, but what I did find was these instructions from VW, on the late Michael Knappman's site:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The instructions are in German, but I think everyone here is familiar enough with the process that no translation is needed. The interesting bit is point 2, where dimensions are given for a c.c. plate to do the measuring on several types of heads.

While Type 4 2.0 l heads are not shown in the figure, it's easy to simply make dimension "a" bigger. So what's needed to measure their capacity is:

• Plexiglas plate, 10 mm (3/8") thick
• 105 mm (4 1/8") diameter
• 7 mm (1/4") holes drilled as indicated

The holes are placed in such a way that when placing the plate it is rotated so that they are above and contained within the combustion chamber area. The tech note instructs to fill the holes to the brim and then substract 2 ml from the final measurement, as that's their combined volume.

I put together such a plate and went ahead and did the measurement on one of the battered combustion chambers. The grease and the plate held well despite the dents on the quench area:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
Notice the bubble above the spark plug. I had to remove it and repeat the measurement

The final measurement was 52.3 - 2 = 50.3 cm3, pretty much as expected.

I'll check the other chambers some time over the weekend. Right now I just wanted to have a reference and to see if the 2.0l cc plate I made would work at all, particularly on the dented heads.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:05 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine forensics Reply with quote

You should only need ONE hole for the CC plate.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


If the quench areas shown by the arrows are dead flat on your heads so they contact the Plexiglas....put grease on them to seal it up clean and put a single hole right up next to any edge of the combustion chamber with very slight overlap of the edge of teh chamber.
Tilt the head so that the hole is at this high point and all bubbles will flow to this hole.

Depending on what all has been done to a head over the years ...not all of these quench areas are dead flat. Most have a slight inward slope. As such...they are part of the volume that you need to measure. In that case....put the hole at the top of the quench area similar to where the yellow spot is in the picture.

If the quench area is sloped slightly and the liquid will not flow into it well and you have many bubbles...the surface tension of the liquid is too high.

A light solvent like alcohol can flow into thin areas better. Try to stay away from base or caustics like window cleaner with ammonia. They tend to have higher surface tension.
Alcohol based auto window washer fluid works well. It mostly methanol. If its being tricky you can put a drop of electric dishwasher spot remover into it....or mix about 10% vinegar into it and it breaks the surface tension for better wetting.

Water typically has surface tension and bubble issues. Ray
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:28 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine forensics Reply with quote

50ccs good.
Nice no heavy fly-cut made.
Do all four of them.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine forensics Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
You should only need ONE hole for the CC plate.


That's what I had seen in other CC kits. I'm not sure why VW specified the 5 holes, but I simply followed. The only reason I can think of is to ease the calculation and perhaps to have more exit points for bubbles. If the total volume with the holes filled is 2 ml, the math is slightly simpler than substracting 0.4 ml, but these are just guesses.

raygreenwood wrote:
If the quench areas shown by the arrows are dead flat on your heads so they contact the Plexiglas....put grease on them to seal it up clean and put a single hole right up next to any edge of the combustion chamber with very slight overlap of the edge of teh chamber.
Tilt the head so that the hole is at this high point and all bubbles will flow to this hole.


Good point. I actually had checked this with my small try square, and other than the visible dents, they seemed to be flat. I did use grease as sealant, some of it can be seen on the picture on the edges of the chamber.

raygreenwood wrote:
A light solvent like alcohol can flow into thin areas better. Try to stay away from base or caustics like window cleaner with ammonia. They tend to have higher surface tension.
Alcohol based auto window washer fluid works well. It mostly methanol. If its being tricky you can put a drop of electric dishwasher spot remover into it....or mix about 10% vinegar into it and it breaks the surface tension for better wetting.

Water typically has surface tension and bubble issues.


Indeed, although in the end I managed to easily remove that bubble in the picture. I tested with both water and soapy water (the later recommended by the VW article, I'm guessing to add a surfactant to plain water). The article recommends either fuel, solvent or soapy water. I went with first water and then soapy water as the first thing I had at hand. I was about to try with denatured alcohol, but then I ran out of time. Anyway, plenty of options, thanks for the suggestions!

Clatter wrote:
50ccs good.
Nice no heavy fly-cut made.
Do all four of them.


Yep, that's the plan Smile
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:29 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine forensics Reply with quote

Is this a Vanagon engine ?

If so, you can find the workshop manual for your CU engine also on Michael Knappmanns website:
http://www.michaelknappmann.de/bulli/michaelk/vw_bus_d/RLF_T3_CU/frame.html

Maybe there is some more information (especially of the technical data) in the Vanagon section
http://www.michaelknappmann.de/bulli/michaelk/vw_bus_d/reparat0.htm#T3lokal
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