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furgo
Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2016
Posts: 944
Location: Southern Germany
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 Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:22 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine forensics |
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| mr. lang wrote: |
| Is this a Vanagon engine ? |
Well spotted  It is indeed a CU Vanagon engine, the European version with carbs of the fuel-injected CV version for the US, Canada, Sweden and Australia (IIRC).
I introduced it on this thread. The plan, if I can assess it's worth restoring, would be to convert it to FI (I've got spares of most FI parts) for a Bay Window bus. Convert is relative, as it came without carbs, so it would be a matter of adding a new fuel delivery.
The other conversion bits I listed on that thread. I still need to figure out the PCV valve part.
Excellent, thanks a lot for the pointer! There's so much wealth of information on that site.
I have the FI manual for the CV version, which I got as most of the info in there applies to the Bay Window's L-Jetronic. As the differences between my GE engine and the CV one are minimal, that can be said about the engine too.
Upon comparing the CU manual online and the CV one on paper, they seem to be fairly similar. The only differences being the carbs/FI parts. In any case, thanks again. I'm familiar with the T2 bits in there, but I'll look through the Vanagon tech notes too.
Other than that, not much to update on the thread, as I could not spend much time on the engine over the weekend.
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'79 Westy, P22 interior, FI 2.0 l Federal, GE engine (hydraulic lifters)
Decode your M-Plate |
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my59
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Joined: August 13, 2003
Posts: 3793
Location: connecting the dots
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:47 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine forensics |
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Pssst- has the case been opened yet?
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my59: Well son, my grandfather died before I got to drive it, so does that answer your question?
our79: sunroof bus w/camper interior and 2.0 FI
Other:'12 Jetta, '77 Benz 300D, and a 74 MG Midget. |
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furgo
Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2016
Posts: 944
Location: Southern Germany
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:14 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine forensics |
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I'm in no rush on this one. But mainly, I wasn't so sure again if there was still interest in a reverse report (i.e. forensics thread as opposed to a build). It was extremely useful to me, but I wasn't sure if also for others.
But if there is, I can gladly keep the thread updated with the progress.
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'79 Westy, P22 interior, FI 2.0 l Federal, GE engine (hydraulic lifters)
Decode your M-Plate |
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my59
Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2003
Posts: 3793
Location: connecting the dots
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:12 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine forensics |
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With the cam pitting, I am curious about the crank/bearings condition. Some photos would be great.
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my59: Well son, my grandfather died before I got to drive it, so does that answer your question?
our79: sunroof bus w/camper interior and 2.0 FI
Other:'12 Jetta, '77 Benz 300D, and a 74 MG Midget. |
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furgo
Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2016
Posts: 944
Location: Southern Germany
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:11 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine forensics |
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Unrelated to the last posts, I was looking at this engine again... and I noticed something. Such a basic thing, but not the first time I've had to triple check it. Am I right to think that the distributor drive shaft is 180° out of phase?
Video shot from the back of the engine, on cylinder head 1, 2 and showing the distributor rotor from the top. The distributor TDC mark is at 5 o'clock on its case.
Link
The sequence starting from the TDC mark on the distributor was:
• Intake valve #1 opens
• Exhaust valve #2 opens
• Exhaust valve #1 and intake valve #2 open
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'79 Westy, P22 interior, FI 2.0 l Federal, GE engine (hydraulic lifters)
Decode your M-Plate |
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Volswagon
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Joined: December 29, 2009
Posts: 299
Location: Knoxville, TN
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:24 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine forensics |
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When #1 is TDC, the #3 valves will both move when you turn it back and forth.
Same with #2 and 4, and vice versa.
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I know the pieces fit, cos I watched them fall away.
Wanna hear God laugh? Just talk about your plans.
'75 Bus https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=697183&highlight= |
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furgo
Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2016
Posts: 944
Location: Southern Germany
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:04 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine forensics |
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Thanks for the reply. Unless I'm mistaken, I think the giveaway in the video is that when the rotor points to the TDC mark, the #1 intake valve is the next one that opens as the engine rotates.
I would instead have expected the #1 exhaust valve to open next, so I think the distributor drive shaft is 180° off.
| Tcash wrote: |
Rotate the engine to where the TDC mark on the crank pulley lines up with the split in the crankcase.
Is the engine on TDC for #1 or #3?
You want #1.
So slowly turn the pulley just past 180 deg clockwise.
Check and see if the (exhaust valve), is beginning to open on #1 cylinder.
[...]
(No it's not) If the exhaust valve is not open you are on TDC #3. |
This also helped as additional confirmation (thanks TCash!)
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'79 Westy, P22 interior, FI 2.0 l Federal, GE engine (hydraulic lifters)
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stwesty
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Joined: May 10, 2015
Posts: 128
Location: Vancouver, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:11 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine forensics |
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| furgo wrote: |
I'm in no rush on this one. But mainly, I wasn't so sure again if there was still interest in a reverse report (i.e. forensics thread as opposed to a build). It was extremely useful to me, but I wasn't sure if also for others. |
I'm very interested. I've got a mixed CV coded engine with dual carbs. Always good to know what stuff might be compatible or not.
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1974 Westfalia, automatic, dual-carb |
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furgo
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Joined: September 06, 2016
Posts: 944
Location: Southern Germany
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:24 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine forensics |
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| stwesty wrote: |
I'm very interested. I've got a mixed CV coded engine with dual carbs. Always good to know what stuff might be compatible or not. |
Ok, great!
A question: a while ago I read someone having trashed a case. I seem to remember they left the case either untorqued or open for quite a long period of time. In my case, once I split the case it will still be quite a few weeks until I've done the cleanup, gathered new parts and do a build.
So is this a matter of concern at all (and if so, why?), or is my memory playing tricks on me and just imagining I had read this?
On another subject, while doing the TDC measurement I came up with an alternative way to check valve movement in this particular situation:
• Fully pumped hydro lifters (i.e. rockers won't move by hand)
• No assistant to watch movement
I had trouble in the past checking valve movement on my bus in this scenario. Unlike solids, since there is no actual valve lash and without watching them move, it became quite difficult to tell which valves were actually being actuated while doing the turn-alternator-pulley-then-crawl-under-bus-to-watch-valves dance.
Probably someone else already came up with this already, but it was new to me, so I thought I'd share it here in case it can be useful to anyone else.
In short, I was watching exhaust valve #2 to determine TDCC #1, which is the first one to open after the distributor rotor goes past the TDC mark. So I simply:
1) Made a mark between the rocker arm and the spacer (*) with the crankshaft at TDC (0° on the scale)
2) Turned the crankshaft CW about a quarter turn (ca. 80°-90° ATDC on the scale)
3) Checked the mark to be out of alignment. Confirmed that the valve was open.
(*) I know the spacer is not static and not the best reference for the mark, but it was static enough to do the trick.
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'79 Westy, P22 interior, FI 2.0 l Federal, GE engine (hydraulic lifters)
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Tcash
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Joined: July 20, 2011
Posts: 12844
Location: San Jose, California, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:47 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine forensics |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:53 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine forensics |
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| furgo wrote: |
| stwesty wrote: |
I'm very interested. I've got a mixed CV coded engine with dual carbs. Always good to know what stuff might be compatible or not. |
Ok, great!
A question: a while ago I read someone having trashed a case. I seem to remember they left the case either untorqued or open for quite a long period of time. In my case, once I split the case it will still be quite a few weeks until I've done the cleanup, gathered new parts and do a build.
So is this a matter of concern at all (and if so, why?), or is my memory playing tricks on me and just imagining I had read this?
On another subject, while doing the TDC measurement I came up with an alternative way to check valve movement in this particular situation:
• Fully pumped hydro lifters (i.e. rockers won't move by hand)
• No assistant to watch movement
I had trouble in the past checking valve movement on my bus in this scenario. Unlike solids, since there is no actual valve lash and without watching them move, it became quite difficult to tell which valves were actually being actuated while doing the turn-alternator-pulley-then-crawl-under-bus-to-watch-valves dance.
Probably someone else already came up with this already, but it was new to me, so I thought I'd share it here in case it can be useful to anyone else.
In short, I was watching exhaust valve #2 to determine TDCC #1, which is the first one to open after the distributor rotor goes past the TDC mark. So I simply:
1) Made a mark between the rocker arm and the spacer (*) with the crankshaft at TDC (0° on the scale)
2) Turned the crankshaft CW about a quarter turn (ca. 80°-90° ATDC on the scale)
3) Checked the mark to be out of alignment. Confirmed that the valve was open.
(*) I know the spacer is not static and not the best reference for the mark, but it was static enough to do the trick. |
No. Leaving the case untorqued.....on an aluminum case.....does nothing. I have two cases....and have had many others....and many parts of many industrial cast aluminum machines (gear box cases etc.)....that have been left unassembled for ages.....and measure perfectly.
However...magnesium and magnesium alloys.....not only work harden (all metals work hard but mag can work harden at a comparatively alarming rate) but can have surface hardening with age in thin areas because of oxidization as well.
The other things that can make people think their cases have changed over time....because the do.....is if a case has been clearance milled for stroke on the crank or other heavy machine work. Once the case has run for a long time....heat cycles....its,relatively stress relieved. Cutting into the cast stress relieved surface.....releases new stresses...and yes then could possibly change shape.
I would think you might the aame issue taking a well used case and then align boring it. It could cause a stress release. Ray |
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furgo
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Joined: September 06, 2016
Posts: 944
Location: Southern Germany
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:33 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine forensics |
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Thanks Ray. So if I understand this correctly, and assuming no machine work has been done, leaving the engine case untorqued would only be a concern for Type 1 magnesium cases but NOT for the Type 4 aluminum ones.
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'79 Westy, P22 interior, FI 2.0 l Federal, GE engine (hydraulic lifters)
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:00 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine forensics |
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| furgo wrote: |
| Thanks Ray. So if I understand this correctly, and assuming no machine work has been done, leaving the engine case untorqued would only be a concern for Type 1 magnesium cases but NOT for the Type 4 aluminum ones. |
Correct.
Ray |
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