Sealing rings at top/bottom of cylinders

[furgo]

Regarding this link...
https://www.typ4shop.de/product_info.php?info=p593_Oelpumpe-Typ4-30mm-BILLET-CNC.html

If you end up having no other option and that helps, Orratech is at least a known engine builder/seller in Germany. I can't speak for their reputation or quality though, as I've never used them. But I'm really surprised they don't speak English.

I've been following the thread from the background and getting interested in the pump discussion lately, as it's something I guess some of us will have to tackle in the future. Am I right that these are the options you've considered (and thus what's available nowadays)?

• Rebuilt pump (24 mm gear)
• Orratech's German CNC billet pump (30 mm gear)
• Melling pump (30 mm gear, steel case)
• Schadeck pump (30 mm or 26 mm gear)
• CB Performance pump (26 mm gear)
_________________
'79 Westy, P22 interior, FI 2.0 l Federal, GE engine (hydraulic lifters)

Decode your M-Plate

[raygreenwood]

[orwell84]

[SGKent]

limit your pressure by choosing a viscosity that stays in the proper range. No need for anything else unless you run the same oil 12 mo a year.
_________________
“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[raygreenwood]

[SGKent]

I like the process that is already proven to run the bus 100,000 miles. 10 psi per 1000 RPM is all that is needed. It was 100F when I took the bus out the other day. The oil was 180F and it was 20 PSI per 1000 with a stock pump. That viscosity is overkill excepting that if we take it to Yosemite then it hits 260F on the extended climb into the Sierra's which will give me just 10 - 12 PSI per 1000. Very happy with the stock pump. Maybe VW screwed up and I was just dumb lucky to have such good luck. My stock pump on the 1971 dual port used to support 5,500 - 6,000 RPM for hours on the way to Havasu. Guess I was just stupid lucky to be so blessed with it.
_________________
“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[raygreenwood]

[orwell84]

I should be getting my bus on the road in the next two weeks after finishing a cab door rebuild and replacing my windshield.

One of the first things I'm going to do is replace my CB performance pump with the stock pump I tightened up over the winter. I will get some numbers from driving with both pumps and describe what I find. It certainly doesn't get Death Valley hot here in northern NY, but a few highway flogs through the Adirondack High Peaks region should get my engine toasty enough. Ralph's oil temp and pressure readings were very similar to mine so hopefully the information will be helpful.

[Clatter]

Like was said before, there are things you just cannot fix anymore WRT oil clearances in these motors.

Because bearing specs are now looser, to a crank that's polished instead of turned, to lifter bores being worn... Etc. Etc.

If you have a pump that's a couple mm longer to compensate, thats a great solution!



These motors are actually really simple and forgiving.
You can build the thing as a temple to your superior manhood, or your overlord mastery of the physical realm,
compensation for being bald, old and fat..
Whatever you hangup is...

Or you can build it to go camping with your family and have a great time.
These things do not have to be 100% perfect to run fine for years.

How about just throwing the gauges away?

There is more than one solution to this.


Our OP doesn't yet even know if the pump is actually the problem, BTW..
_________________
Bus Motor Build

What’s That Noise?!?

[raygreenwood]

[Clatter]

I wasn't talking about you, Ray..
_________________
Bus Motor Build

What’s That Noise?!?

[SGKent]

[Clatter]

I'm making fun of ALL of you!


I have come a long, long, (LONG!) way from my survival-driver days of yore.

The things we all did all of the time way back when would be considered the most heinous of hacks today.
But,
My bus just ran and ran and ran, and does so to this day.
Dag, the stories I could tell... Stuff that would have all here dog-piling me in a mob,
but it always ran.
None of my hacks ever caused a failure.
It was my only car for like six-eight(?) years?

Any failures for me were from unknown random unforeseeables,
like fuel pump failure,
Or an ignition switch that decided one day to just quit connecting hot power to coil.

Now,
of anyone who I know (away from here and out in the real world) who did or does these things,
They consider me the nuttiest anal retentive nutbag in the nut store.
HAM heads!?!? HOW much money!?!?
You're out of your mind!
Why bother switching to 72-74 exhaust and a header, it doesn't make that much of a difference.
Etc. etc. etc...

You guys on this forum are just completely out of your tree.
Enough of the mob keeps repeating the same stories,
Some newcomers might actually start believing it!

I have now built an automotive temple to my awesomeness,
That is WAY overkill for the duties at hand.
Sure,
It sings a sweet song, and carries me thousands of miles across country.
But,
it's way 'overbuilt' for what it really needs to do.
And it's still unknowns like the ignition switch and the fuel pump that will cause me grief on a long trip far from home...!

So,
Yeah,
Go ahead and build the best motor you absolutely can,
If that's what you are here to do.
But,
Don't mistake it for building a motor that will run well and last for a long time.

Truth be told,
It's really the totally neglected run-out-of-oil motors that throw a rod,
And the run-lean-for-30-years motors that suck a valve.
Otherwise,
Your motor that had some grave thing wrong will just get tired and be annoyingly slow to drive, or not pass smog, or some other non-catastrophic thing that can be fixed when you get home.



Moving on to our OP,
(and any stretch of relevance this rant might have to this thread ),
He might do well to inspect his pump first, before deciding the problem is the pump.

If i could wager on this,
My guess is that the pump is OK,
And the normal bearing tolerances that w see with new parts these days
Are found within Ralph's engine.
(Combined, of course, with things like lifter bores and relief valve bores that can lesson oil pressure).

While a guy like Ray, (Or Jake Raby, who corrects these things on all of the motors he builds, BTW),
Can take the time to do what is needed to get the correct tight factory tolerances on the main and rod bearings,
That is not so for mere mortals who don't have their own mics to send to their crank grinder.

Because several of the reground cranks i have seen lately are on the small side.
(being safe by not being too tight),
And the bearings also seem to run on the big/loose side,
(being safe by not being too tight),
Most of these aircooled motors these days being built are already on the loose side of spec for new parts.

Unless you have your own crank grinder, you are NOT going to easily get the oil clearances right on your bottom end.

Re-bushing lifter bores and resizing oil plunger piston holes is not typically done by a home builder in his garage, either.

So,
just HOW is any normal person who has oil pressure issues going to achieve the nirvana that comes from seeing their $29 VDO gauge say 30PSI at 3,000RPM?

Try a slightly bigger pump..
_________________
Bus Motor Build

What’s That Noise?!?

[orwell84]

[raygreenwood]

Clatter is always having fun with us!



I am NEVER in an all fired hurry that re-balances my time to NOT do things the best that I can...like trying to set oil tolerances back to factory specs....

I do not have to frantically get my VW ready to be able to take the family on camping trips when summer hits....to justify my cars existence...or make it useful.
I do not have to crazily slap things together to be able to get it to the VW show next weekend...because I dont care about the shows.

And yes... if I need a tool...I save up for it...or buy it used and refurb or recalibrate it...or even borrow it. I pay for machine work that is needed when I can afford it. If not...it waits.

I do not have to do....just the best that I can with the crap I got on hand....to go asap....because its not my daily driver.

Yes....I do have time to do it better. I take the time. As I noted....again I think in this thread....and all of that just said.... goes right along with my personal philosophy regarding MY VW......because I drove this actual car the better part of 500k miles already.

I got all of that silly...gotta drive IMMEDIATELY.... cap...out of my system long ago. I decided I would try driving it another way that I have not already done.....when in its near perfect condition...nearly fully restored...and well preserved.

Ham heads are too much money...for me. Not saying they are not worth it....but then again I have enough parts and connections to have heads THAT GOOD...built on my own with a lot of my own work....for money I CAN AFFORD.

See thats the difference. Why are HAM heads too expensive for you?...because you would rather spend that money taking your family camping.

To me...thats a waste of good car parts money. To you...its what you are building the car FOR. To each their own.

And....then there is the other difference. You noted...build the best motor you "can". Just dont mistake it for building a motor that will last a long time.


What?.....?....? ...Damn Clatter...you must just have poor experiences. ....and you know I'm just pulling your leg...but I am semi serious

There your are showing YOUR mindset that say.... that with what YOU are willing to invest....time and money wise....it seems to make no difference and you do not get worthwhile longevity..................................................................while my experiences building MANY type 4 engines..... are totally opposite.

Yeah...if you just slap it together...with tolerances and parts that are just what you get or can manage....sure...it may not last as long or any longer...than factory.
And if thats what you want to do....not a thing wrong with that....and I mean that. It a balance between time and money for what you want out of your VW.
And I am not normal....

However....if you build it carefully...choose your parts and machine work well...you CAN actually make it last longer than the factory build....easily. It costs more time than money.

Just building it to factory specs....and going to synthetic oil....and tuning it better than the baseline level the factory provided....virtually insures that.

Ray

[Tcash]

This thread is going Off topic. Please stay on topic.

I can't find it, but the last time the subject of type IV oil pumps not being available came up. Someone posted a link to IIRC an Italian comparing manufacturing oil pumps for the 914 world.

These popped up with a search.
Housing
http://www.autoatlanta.com/Porsche-Oil-Pump-Housing-Parts-PN-G021115107A.html
Genuine Porsche Pump
http://www.autoatlanta.com/Porsche-Oil-Pump-Parts-PN-G021115107AK.html

Good luck
Tcash

[RalphWiggam]

For the record, all of the tolerances that I thought needed checking (according to the Wilson book), were in spec. There really isn't anything in that book about the oil pump so I didn't even know to check it. There also isn't really anything about the relief bores in Wilson's book. I did what the book and people here told me to do. Im no expert, but I'm figuring it out and will do my best to pass the knowledge on to the next generation.

When I saw what might be an issue during break in I started troubleshooting. Always start with the easiest things first, right? That's what I am doing. Respect the process, right? I've only got about 400 miles on the engine and the pressure issue only arises in certain conditions. I doubt I've done much if any damage. I'm still working through it and I'm sure I'll get it figured out. The oil pump is now my next stop. It might be that a fresh type 4 pump still won't solve the issue. If not I'll move to something with bigger gears and more risk if I have to. Maybe my middle of the road clearances needed a 26mm or 30mm pump to begin with. Ok, that's fine, but how would I ever know that if I didn't try other things first?

I also had no idea it was impossible to find a good oem type 4 pump. I do find it odd that no aftermarket parts companies have created a proper solution.

[Tcash]

There is an aftermarket company manufacturing new pumps. The supplier is buried in one of the many Type 4 oil pump threads. Or worse yet someone's build thread. I can't find it, It was a work of art buitifully machined with new gears.

Need google translate
http://www.adv-performance.de/Eigene%20Produkte.html

http://www.tp-technologie.de/products_dry_sump_oil_pump.htm

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/search.php?searc..._chars=200
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/search.php?searc..._chars=200
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/search.php?searc..._chars=200

[SGKent]

Ralph the lash (movement of tail shaft up and down) you are looking for is about .0015". Anything more than .0002" is wear on the pump body. If you are patient Phil will take care of you.
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[RalphWiggam]