AT transmission shifting weirdness

[blackglasspirate]

I already found the first problem - the circlip and retaining key for the one way clutch were in wrong. It scratched up the inside of the housing a bit, but more on that later.

I do have a question(s) regarding the larger discs. I think they are labeled inner splined 1st/reverse brake, outer splined 1st reverse brake, and the wavy spring washer.

In the Bentley there are 5 "friction" discs, or whatever you call them, 5 metal separators, and the wavy spring washer. Page 38.7.
We just removed 4 discs and 4 separators. In the box with the old parts that the other guy removed there are 4 discs and 5 metal separators. I don't know what's right and neither does the mechanic I'm with now.

Also with the 4 separators that we took out, there are 2 that are equal and the other 2 are equal as well. In the 5 in the box of "old" parts there are 3 equal and 2 equal. If that makes sense.
Here's the photo of the page in the Bentley.

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'87 Vanagon GL Westfalia
IG: @holidayatsee
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[AndyBees]

I'm looking at the same lay-out in the Bentley (same page) for the Vanagon auto tranny as well as the 087 tranny for a Quantum (same transmission). Both schematics are exactly the same in both manuals. They are both technically 010 trannies.

My suggestion is to go with what the manual shows. Match up a set for inner splined plates and the outer splined plates... and go with them according to order in the diagram. I suspect they are all about the same as far as condition (new or old).

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EDIT: I'm not sure how deep you've pulled it apart. But, on the assumption you've basically done a complete break down, on Page 38.13, notice the instructions for the 1st/reverse Clutch Piston there in Fig. 16 relating to the ball valve. In the Quantum manual it indicates the ball valve is the "new version.'
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'84 Vanagon Tin-top, ALH TDI. 1989 Tin-top
1983 Air-cool, 225k miles, 180k miles mine. Seven trips to Alaska from 1986 thru 2003.

[Butcher]

Usually, you cannot just as plates/discs without removing a thicker disc/shim. There is only so much space. If you try, the snap ring will not fit.

If the one way clutch is not working, you will not get the locking needed to move forward. By manually shifting into first you are adding another clutch engagement. The symptoms you have surely sounds like the one way clutch was not working at all.

Sounds like the valvebody needs to be disassembled and cleaned. All the piston need to move smoothly. Do one at a time and take many pictures on the way.

[MarkWard]

I have seen stacks of 4 and 5, the kits usually include 5. Because this transmission is not OE, you can't go by what was there. You need to assemble and check clearances. The manual covers how to measure clearances.
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[kourt]

Howdy,

For photo references, refer to the 1985 Vanagon references in these photos:

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7835491#7835491

Ignore the references to Audi 5000 Turbo transmissions.

I have the stack order for the forward drum and the direct drum listed.

You probably already noticed this, but the frictions are not the same thickness. The thinner frictions go into the forward drum.

For the forward drum, the top to bottom stack order should be:

fat snap ring
non-stepped steel 17 tooth spacer
friction, 49 minus 1 tooth, 0.061"
steel, 17 tooth, 0.079"
friction, 49 minus 1 tooth, 0.061"
steel, 17 tooth, 0.079"
friction, 49 minus 1 tooth, 0.061"
ring gear, 56 tooth
steel, 17 tooth, 0.079"
friction, 49 minus 1 tooth, 0.061"
beveled 17 tooth spacer (bevel down)
skinny snap ring
16 lug clutch return spring
piston
forward drum

...so read that list from bottom to top to assemble.

The direct drum should be rebuilt with four 17 tooth 0.079" steels and four 49-tooth 0.090" frictions, with 2.0mm endplay. There's a spacer and a snap ring as well.

I hope this helps.

kourt

[blackglasspirate]

Thanks all for the input. Kourt, I just stumbled upon that thread of yours before I saw it here and it explains a lot of the differences.
The reason why there were only 4 of the bigger discs and plates and no "wavy" washer was because that washer was eliminated and there were some modifications explained on page 38.13.

Also, for the forward piston Kourt's thread explains why there was an extra plate and disc in there and the top pressure plate/spacer was beveled. Looks like that's some sort of upgrade/modification that GTA did when they rebuilt it.

We haven't gotten to the direct drum yet but will in the morning.
Here's what I've found so far:

1. The circlip above the one way clutch wasn't in right. It wore another groove into the inside of the housing. See the pic below, though it's kind of hard to tell.

2. The retaining key for the one way clutch was installed wrong. That along with the messed up circlip caused it to get gauged. See pic below.

3. The bottom washer for the thrust bearing on top of the oil pump was upside down. The lugs were pointing down, not towards the bearing. It's on page 38.8. I don't think this caused any damage as far as I have been able to tell so far.

4. In the forward clutch he re-used some of the old discs. There are 3 new discs and 2 old ones. I don't know why, since the kit came with 5 new ones. The old ones are still in good condition and are the same thickness as the new ones, so I don't think it would cause a problem per-se, but it doesn't make any sense to me.


Tomorrow we will continue the disassembly and see what else we find. We may also pay the other mechanic a visit and get some answers. We should have just done it ourselves to begin with. Honestly so far it hasn't been very difficult. I was much more intimidated by it beforehand but so far it has been pretty easy. The only hard part has been not being able to trust the order/assembly of things in there to be correct because of the previous guy who worked on it.

Either way, today has been quite the stressful day.


Groove:

Key

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'87 Vanagon GL Westfalia
IG: @holidayatsee
FB: https://www.facebook.com/holidayatsee

[dobryan]

Damn it is awesome the technical knowledge available here. Kinda like you have a cult behind you when you travel. (Which is exactly what my brother in law said when I blew the tranny on the way to Key Wesy in 2013 and Steve VanB put me up. for the night. ).
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Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD

"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson

MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646

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The Western Syncro build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794

[MarkWard]

I had a vague memory return. When assembling the 2 clutch packs, you don't just set them around the center hub. I remember setting 1 steel and 1 fiber, then the center hub, and then the rest of the fibers and steels get installed. There is a step or notch on the inner hub that keeps the plates from just dropping in. As I said, it's a vague memory.
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[blackglasspirate]

Dobryan, you're right, it's pretty great. I would have still been in the dark here without the knowledge of others on the samba. You guys and the Bentley are all I've got right now!

Mark, you are correct on that. The Bentley shows one inner splined disc on the bottom of the gear, then the rest from the top, starting with and outer splines plate. However I found that the inner diameter of the outer splined plate is bigger than the diameter of the step on the gear, so it goes right over it. Not entirely sure what's up with that.
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'87 Vanagon GL Westfalia
IG: @holidayatsee
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[MarkWard]

Could be just a quality control problem. That wedge that was torn up, is a critical part. I am not sure how it did not get installed correctly. Any way, but the correct position would interfere with the last assembly steps.
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[blackglasspirate]

A few questions I have right now:


1. Is it a problem to reuse old friction discs if they don't show any signs of wear and are the same thickness as the new ones?

2. The old discs have lines in the friction material. The new ones do not, except for the direct clutch. Is that a problem? The Bentley said only use discs with the lines, but then one of the 010 tech manuals said only use ones without.

3. Is it safe to reuse that retaining key with the grooves worn into it? Not sure if something like that is repairable.


We are going to the rebuilders house today to get an explanation and also hopefully get some of the new friction plates that we are currently missing. The kit came with 5 of each type. We are missing one of the bigger ones, one for the direct clutch, and two for the forward. The bigger one and the direct clutch one don't matter except as spares because we only need 4. But I would like the 2 for the forward clutch so they are all new.

All of the old discs are in good condition except the ones from the direct clutch. They are black/burned on one side and the steels are black too.
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'87 Vanagon GL Westfalia
IG: @holidayatsee
FB: https://www.facebook.com/holidayatsee

[MarkWard]

The grooves perform a couple functions. They act as visual wear indicators and they allow fluid to move out from the mating surfaces when they are applied.

It's not like you can just get new parts, so you will need to make do with what have. Dress up the damaged parts as best you can. If you need to mix and match parts, that's what you will have to do. It's not ideal, but if you get moving again, it's probably fine.
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[Butcher]

The grooves are present to shed oil when they are NOT applied. This is to help reduce drag.

They may be used to visually determine if they are worn, but that is a side benefit.

[AndyBees]

As I believe I stated previously, I've rebuilt three 010 transmissions. One of them was due to taking so long to shift when everything was cold. It had hard seals that apparently only got soft after the oil warmed up.

The other two 010s just had high miles... none of them were slipping! None of them had unusually dark oil or strong odor from the tranny. All of the clutch discs looked "okay" to me. But, I did replace all of them with those that come in the kit.

So, as Mark said, if you need to mix and match to get the right combo per clearance specs, I see no problem.

As for the metal piece, I cannot saw for sure what to do. Maybe a file can dress up the edges a bit. Check to see if it fits snug! You may need to use some grease to hold it in place during assembly... not really sure one that one!
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'84 Vanagon Tin-top, ALH TDI. 1989 Tin-top
1983 Air-cool, 225k miles, 180k miles mine. Seven trips to Alaska from 1986 thru 2003.

[blackglasspirate]

Thanks for the tips. You're right, I'm just gonna have to do with what I have. Though I shouldn't need to mix the old with the new because the kit came with 5 new discs for that clutch pack. The only question is what the hell happened to them. We went by the rebuilder's house yesterday and he wasn't there. Going back in about an hour. The retaining key we are going to clean up a bit and the mechanic here said he should be able to fix it up nicely. I guess we'll find out.

We finished disassembling the rest of the transmission this morning and I noticed one more thing installed slightly incorrectly, though I don't know if it caused many problems. On the 1st/reverse brake piston there is a ball valve that the bentley says is supposed to be lined up with a hole in the housing. It wasn't lined up at all.

When we removed the filter I just about fainted:

Also, the oil I siphoned out of the TC was pretty glittery as well:

Luckily (I think), it all looks like the aluminum from the parts we already found to be damaged. We haven't found anything else that shows signs of damage so I think we may be in the clear as far as the rest of the transmission goes. We still need to clean/reassemble the internals, disassemble/clean the valve body, clean the cooler, and attempt to somehow clean the inside of the TC.
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'87 Vanagon GL Westfalia
IG: @holidayatsee
FB: https://www.facebook.com/holidayatsee

[kourt]

If you get in a bind with assembly order of the drums or bearings, let me know. I have a practice transmission in my backyard that can be easily pulled out for photo or video reference. I have used it many times to support folks who are reassembling in the field.

kourt

[blackglasspirate]

[MarkWard]

It's hard to clean the torque converter. Some manufacturers have drain plugs. VW doesn't. I would not flush it with solvent. I would fill it with fresh ATF, shake and siphon off. Repeat a couple times. I am concerned about your expert down there. Based on the results, that was his first 010. You can see it's not rocket science, but it does require attention to detail. Review the compressed air tests in the manual.
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[kourt]

[blackglasspirate]

Well, it's been an interesting and tiring few days but everything is currently back together and ready to be tested tomorrow. Along with the VW mechanic (different than the guy who "rebuilt" the transmission the first time around), we disassembled everything, cleaned it, and put it back together. We cleaned the converter, cooler, and cooler lines as well.

I just about had a heart attack when I picked up the one way clutch and the cage fell out, spilling the little spacer and spring things all over muddy gravel. Luckily, I found all of them.
Everything went back together smoothly and we did find what I believe was causing the problems, so I have my fingers crossed there won't be any problems tomorrow. The suspense is killing me on that one.

Based on what I found when disassembling, here's what the rebuilder either did wrong or didn't do at all, some of which has already been mentioned:

1. The circlip for the one way clutch was not fully seated, which caused it to wear a ring into the inside of the case.

2. The retaining key for the one way clutch was upside down. I think he probably forgot about it or didn't know what to do with it and so he just dropped it in the little slot after he assembled everything else. I don't know, but either way it was wrong.

3. The 1st/reverse clutch did not have the ball valve lined up with the hole in the casing and apply case.

4. Bottom "washer" for the bearing on top of the oil pump neck was upside down. The lugs were pointing down.

5. In the forward clutch there were 3 new and 2 old discs. According to the people who sent me the rebuild kit, there were five of each kind of disc so there should have been enough to use all new. The rebuilder insists there were only 3 new ones.

6. He reused two old outer splined steels with 2 new ones for the 1st/Reverse discs. There were 5 that came in the pack so I don't know why he re-used 2 old ones. When reassembling I put in all new.

7. He did not replace the gaskets on the brake band piston or the cap for the piston, even though they were included in the kit. I replaced them.

8. He did not replace the gasket on the accumulator piston behind the valve body, even though it was in the kit. I replaced it.


I think that about sums it up. The good news is that I got to learn a lot about the transmission. The bad news is that I wasted more time/money and won't know until tomorrow if everything is working correctly. I did do the compressed air tests for each clutch pack and brake piston and everything worked as it should, so I guess we'll see.

Hasta mañana!
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'87 Vanagon GL Westfalia
IG: @holidayatsee
FB: https://www.facebook.com/holidayatsee