AT transmission shifting weirdness

[blackglasspirate]

Ok, first off, sorry for another post about my trans problems. It's different than the leak(although related) I have another thread on but this is worse and I didn't want it to get buried. For reference this is a 2ish year old rebuilt GTA trans with a Peloquin TBD in it. I'm also in Argentina, which complicates things.

TLDR:
After being low on fluid, the trans doesn't upshift until the rpms are really high. Also feels like the brake band is kicking on at weird times when I let off the gas and maybe brake a bit. I contacted GTA and they are just like
No one has parts for Vanagon's and hence, no one will work on it.

Longer version:
I had an ATF leak that started slow coming from around the torque converter. I kept an eye on it and the level and continued to drive. There was never an actual drip, just seepage. One day after driving at highway speeds for a few hours I stopped and noticed it dripping from a few spots along the bottom of the engine. Not a lot, just enough to cause a few quarter sized stains in the ground. Around this time it also would not want to shift from 1st to 2nd when the engine was cold. It would rev high and eventually go, and then everything would be fine the rest of the day.

The leak never leaked that bad again, even after long drives, but I was concerned so decided to take it to a VW mechanic in the next big town. He looked at the leak and said he didn't think it was a problem and to just top of the fluid every now and then. He also said parts are impossible to come by here (Argentina) so even if he dropped the trans he wouldn't have the parts to fix anything. So we drove another 100 miles to the next town, stopped for some empanadas and when I turned the van back on there was a loud whirring/spinning noise coming from the trans that would increase with RPMs. The atf level was low so I topped it off but it still made noise and seemed to sometimes be slipping in first, just when I would start applying acceleration. Then after driving 10-15 miles the sound went away.

I assumed it was starving for fluid, though the level didn't seem that low. Then yesterday I drained the ATF and inspected the filter. It had some metal shavings on it, but nothing that looked THAT bad to me. Pictures below so you can see. I cleaned the filter as best I could and refilled with fresh ATF. I also cleaned the vent holes on top of the trans and retorqued the bolts on the TC.

Now (although it was starting to do this before the fluid change) it will rev really high before upshifting, especially when cold. Today it shifted to 2nd at a little above 3.2k and then to 3rd at 4K. I also feel the 2nd gear break band kicking in at weird times when I decelerate and I've never felt that before. The shifting gets a little better as it drives, but still bad.

I emailed GTA (I got it rebuilt from them 2yrs ago) and they basically said it *could* be metal parts got into the torque converter but they can't really be sure and I should bring it to them. Unfortunately I can't just swing by from Argentina.

So, if anyone has any ideas or could provide some insight I would really appreciate it. It I also currently driveable but I am afraid to drive too far for fear of being stranded in the middle of nowhere Patagonia.

Here are the pics:

_________________
'87 Vanagon GL Westfalia
IG: @holidayatsee
FB: https://www.facebook.com/holidayatsee

[MarkWard]

You don't have a lot of options. A rebuilt automatic should have included a new or rebuilt torque convertor. Not much you can do externally. Put it back together and fill with Type F automatic fluid and start heading to where you can get it fixed. I recall a thread where someone overhauled their automatic on a picnic table. But they were able to secure parts for the rebuild. The automatic section was used in Audis and VW's of that era, so you don't need to be locked into a Vanagon specific automatic transmission.

Worse case, have another one shipped and pay the core charge. Sorry I don't have better news. My racing transmissions come from Argentina. The company is called Saenz. They have containers coming from Miami every so often and maybe you could get their exporter to load one in the container to help save the freight. That is not a lot of debris, but more than should be there. Not much you can do externally to repair one. Sorry I don't have better news. The Bentley Manual has a pressure test you can do to see what is not working, but if no one can fix it, then that is not much help.
_________________
☮️

[AndyBees]

This is an 010 tranny if I remember correctly. EDIT: 090 trans but rebuild kit part number is the same, thus basically the same tranny!

I've rebuilt three of them, two Jettas and a Quantum.

The Jetta trannies were just high mileage but working okay before the rebuild.

The Quantum was different in that it would not shift from 2nd to 3rd for up to 7 to 8 miles. Bottom line, seals were hard but obviously softened a bit when the oil got warm.

Those experiences were over 20 years ago!

I rebuilt a Mitsubishi trannny with over-drive. The tranny had been run low on fluid. The fluid was very brown with a very strong stench. I recommended that the guy replace the Torque Converter. Well, that tranny lasted about 3000 miles ......... suspect the TC was loaded with crud.

Running an auto tranny low on fluid will result in clutch slippage!

Rock Auto carries the Rebuild Kit. https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=5897361&cc=1286478&jsn=388
_________________
'84 Vanagon Tin-top, ALH TDI. 1989 Tin-top
1983 Air-cool, 225k miles, 180k miles mine. Seven trips to Alaska from 1986 thru 2003.

[blackglasspirate]

Thanks for the replies.

The rebuilt trans did include a new TC, but then I even put in another rebuilt TC last May due to a problem with the other. So the TC is the newest piece of the trans, minus the differential. Unfortunately I can't find any type F ATF down here either. It's all this G3 stuff which is dexron III/mercon.

You're right I'm pretty much up shit creek with this one. I did notice an automatic transmission shop in Bariloche - it might be worth it to try to get back there and see if there's anything they can do. That's assuming the van makes it.

Getting a rebuilt unit here is definitely a high cost option, but may be the only option. Another option is flying back to the states and coming back with a suitcase full of rebuild parts. Either way is gonna take lots of time and money.

I thought about another fluid change to flush out the rest of what was in there but don't really know if that will make a difference. The fluid that came out wasn't brown and stinky as described. It was pretty normal.

Either way, I have more digging to do.
_________________
'87 Vanagon GL Westfalia
IG: @holidayatsee
FB: https://www.facebook.com/holidayatsee

[avernon82]

metal parts into the torque converter? I don't get it, why would that make it shift so high. Maybe you have a sticky valve body. The pressure needs to build up before the valve will unstick. Could also cause weird downshifting.

Anyway, it happened to me!

[blackglasspirate]

I don't really get it either. If there's metal parts in the TC then there shouldnt be much and they should be pretty small, judging by what's in the filter. Thanks for the suggestions though - something else to look into!
_________________
'87 Vanagon GL Westfalia
IG: @holidayatsee
FB: https://www.facebook.com/holidayatsee

[blackglasspirate]

So, little update in this.

I took off the governor cap and gave it a look. The governor looks clean, not gunked up, and all parts move freely. I checked the final drive oil and it seems low. After smelling the ATF again I started thinking maybe it smelled like gear oil. However, I really need to get a fresh whiff of the gear oil again to compare. It could smell different just because of the different ATF brands that are in there. If it's is mixing, that's obviously a problem, though all of the seals in there should have been replaced when the differential was installed last May. I provided all of the seals to the mechanic so if they weren't installed then I got screwed.

I also adjusted the 2nd gear brake band and it seems to have helped with the high RPM shifting bu has introduced other weirdness. Unfortunately my torque wrench doesn't go low enough to measure the 87 and 43 inch pounds for the adjustment, so I eye balled it at around 7 and 3.5 foot pounds. Now it shifts at normal RPMs but I feel like it slips sometimes between gears and it also feels like it is skipping 2nd. I think I may just need to readjust it.

Gowesty suggested a sticking valve body or governor could be causing the problem and also suggested trying to shift through all gears manually, which revealed something interesting. Shifting manually from 1st to 2nd works fine and very smooth. However, when I put it into D to go to 3rd it freaks out and starts all over, going back to 1st, then 2nd, then 3rd. Not sure what to make of that.

My next plan is to check for cross oil contamination, top off the gear oil if I can find some locally, and readjust the brake band. After that I may attempt to remove/clean the valve body but I'm kind of scared I will totally screw that part up. The last option is to get it back to Bariloche, have someone there look at it, and get the parts from the US, either by shipping or me flying back.

The joys of the road!
_________________
'87 Vanagon GL Westfalia
IG: @holidayatsee
FB: https://www.facebook.com/holidayatsee

[AndyBees]

Removing the valve body is fairly straight forward. But, splitting the valve body can be tricky as there are at least 5 ball bearings to deal with. The Bentley manual has fairly decent illustrations of all the various parts, etc.

FWIW, when I was rebuilding my first 010, I had it on a big clean table at my uncle's garage. A guy come by looking for some VW parts. I had never seen him previously (nor since). He told me that he was a retired transmission assembly line worker for Ford at the Norwood, OH plant. He said, "use plenty of WD-40 as you re-assemble." He said that's what they used on the assembly line.
_________________
'84 Vanagon Tin-top, ALH TDI. 1989 Tin-top
1983 Air-cool, 225k miles, 180k miles mine. Seven trips to Alaska from 1986 thru 2003.

[blackglasspirate]

Thanks for the information. As far as cleaning it, what's the best thing to use? Most of what I've seen involved brake cleaner. Not really sure what to look for after taking it apart either, other than the obvious gunk or big broken metal pieces.

Found some Mobil Delvac 75w90 gear oil so I'm going to siphon out what's in the diff and put that in. That stuff isn't cheap here. Over $20 a quart! Also retrying the brake band adjustment but may need to purchase an inch pound torque wrench, if I can find one, to do it right.
_________________
'87 Vanagon GL Westfalia
IG: @holidayatsee
FB: https://www.facebook.com/holidayatsee

[MarkWard]

You may want to reread the procedure for adjusting the brake band. The torque number is just to ensure the band is seated on the drum. You are then backing it out 2 turns from memory. The adjuster is really a stop. The apply piston is on the opposite side and is controlled by the hydraulics. You don't want the band too tight.
_________________
☮️

[blackglasspirate]

Yeah, I was doing it according to the Bentley. In at 87in lbs, back off, tighten to 43in lbs, then back out 2.5 turns. I wasn't sure just how precise those torques needed to be. I just adjusted again and will see how it behaves as I drive somewhere to camp tonight. I may have to try another half turn in or out to see if it improves.

I also changed the gear oil. It's not all the way up to the exact bottom of the filler hole so I may have to bite the bullet and buy another quart of it.
I don't think gear oil is getting into the trans, based on a sniff test I did. So that's a good thing at least.
_________________
'87 Vanagon GL Westfalia
IG: @holidayatsee
FB: https://www.facebook.com/holidayatsee

[Wildthings]

I went through this years ago, when the oil screen failed and dumped all its contents throughout the transmission. Eventually send it in for a rebuild and it came back with the same problems, but slowly over time the problem subsided. I think the crap scored one of the cylinders and that caused its piston to hang up, but don't really know. When it first happened I had taken apart every piece of the valve body and found nothing, any crap that was there seemed to have passed through by the time I opened it up.

[blackglasspirate]

Interestingly - here's to hoping mine subsides over some time as well! Or maybe I'll find something on the valve body when I take it out.

I think I will attempt to take it out and clean it but need to find a suitable place to do it. Can be tricky around here as there aren't exactly giant Walmart parking lots to find a nice corner. I think I will also try to clean the governor and take it completely out. Any advice on that? Does it just slide right out and right back in?

I also think I may have overfilled the ATF when I changed the fluid out. Not sure how that's possible since I took out about 3liters and put 3liters back in, but when I checked last it was well over the full mark. Along with that I'm going to do more road testing with adjusting the brake band. The drive to my camp spot last night I could still feel slipping at times.

My plan is to do those things and then drive back up to Bariloche and take it to a shop if nothing works. Who knows, maybe I'll get lucky and a long drive with fix the problem. Fingers crossed...
_________________
'87 Vanagon GL Westfalia
IG: @holidayatsee
FB: https://www.facebook.com/holidayatsee

[djkeev]

Last Summer in an attempt to solve my not shifting into third when cold I ordered a brand NEW valve body.

It came, I put it in and sadly no change.

My point is, my old valve body is known good. I did fix the center plate indentation a while ago.

If you want it, it is rotting in my shed (clean, wrapped in plastic and boxed).

Send me a PM with your address. I'll ship it off, just reimburse me shipping if you can.

Dave
_________________
Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos

Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert

[Butcher]

You have debris in the system and where do you think that debris came from? It sure looks like clutches and metal. I think it's wishful thinking if you think anything less than a complete tear down will fix it. There is no magic fluid that will put the pieces back together again. I have no idea where you are at, but I think a reliable vehicle is paramount so fixing it right is extremely important.

I would not drive it anywhere until you find a shop that is capable of rebuilding it. Driving it to a shop may not be ideal if the shop just tell you 'No'.

[blackglasspirate]

Well I certainly agree no magic fluid is going to fix it, but I'm not even sure what the problem is yet. And I'm not completely sure a complete rebuild is necessary. I mean the trans only has two years on it and I was under the impression that the amount of debris that was in the filter was normal. It didn't seem excessive to me and the ATF that I drained was completely clean of any debris.

My point is I still don't even know what the problem is and am trying to cover all my bases before taking it to a shop. If I were Stateside it would make this a lot easier but I'd like to exhaust all my options before I attempt to have something freighted to me or I fly back to the states for parts.
_________________
'87 Vanagon GL Westfalia
IG: @holidayatsee
FB: https://www.facebook.com/holidayatsee

[blackglasspirate]

Alright, little update in this.

I took apart the valve body and cleaned what I could. It was a terrifying experience, not knowing if I'd be able to put it back together right or lose a piece. It was also a PITA to find any sort of cleaner around here. When I asked about brake cleaner they had never heard of it and handed me WD-40. Carb cleaner some people had heard of but all they had was a fuel system cleaner that you add to your gas. Finally one place had something for cleaning metal engine parts. I used a combination of what I could get.

Anyway, when taking out the filter I noticed a little more "glitter" in there, though I didn't actually clean everything out last time and some of it may have just worked it's way through the system. I didn't find any of the valves to be particularly dirty, just a little bit but I cleaned them up as best I could. I also noticed someone had sanded down on of the ball tracks/seats that I've seen in other threads. Guess this was a rebuilt valve body.

I also did the compressed air test into the clutch pack holes. The first/reverse clutch pack engaged as it should, but then the forward and direct clutch packs wouldn't engage. Or at least, I didn't hear them engage when I blew compressed air into the holes. I did hear air escaping out of the other side though. I'm not sure if I was doing that right? I figured if those two packs were actually hosed I wouldn't have 2nd or 3rd gear, but I do. I also tested the port for the brake band and it engaged just fine.

I put the hole shebang back together, topped off the diff oil another 300ml and took her for a test spin. Currently I feel no slipping between gears. The only strange thing is the 2nd to 3rd upshift. When in D I can feel it shift to 2nd but it doesn't stay in 2nd for very long before it upshift a to 3rd. Maybe just a few seconds (even without increased throttle). At first I thought it wasn't going into 2nd at all, but it is, it's just shifting to 3rd pretty quickly/prematurely. If I manually shift between 1-2-D then everything is normal. I did only drive about 6-7 miles though so maybe I need to do more.

I'm thinking that could be just another brake band adjustment since that didn't start until after I tried to reset it, but I'm open to suggestions. I didn't do the adjustment before my test drive today because I wanted to just test what I had done to the valve body. I also didn't clean the governor because I ran out of cleaner. :/

I have a contact in Buenos Aires that says he has a friend that works for American Airlines and goes to the states every week so he could bring some stuff back for me, assuming it's not big and heavy. Still not exactly sure what I need though. I could just get a whole rebuild kit and every seal I can possibly find, but need to do some research.

Any suggestions on the the situations or what parts I should think of getting?

_________________
'87 Vanagon GL Westfalia
IG: @holidayatsee
FB: https://www.facebook.com/holidayatsee

[Butcher]

There is a source for all that glitter.

Removing all of it does not mean the transmission will not make more. Until you find the source, it's not fixed. Assuming it is may just leave you on the side of the road with a much bigger problem. The problem may be able have a reasonable fix but if you keep driving it, it may be beyond a simple fix.

The debris you have, is not normal, way too many chunks of clutch material and metal.

[AndyBees]

If I remember correctly, (been 20 years) the bearing that the pilot shaft runs in (opposite end from the Torque Converter) is bronze. That end of the pilot shaft turns the Oil Pump.

The first 010 tranny that I rebuilt the bushing and the end of the pilot shaft were badly worn. I used my uncle's old lathe to smooth out the shaft and make a new bronze bearing.

So, maybe you need to see if those shiny bits are ferrous or brass/bronze. Use a magnet for testing!
_________________
'84 Vanagon Tin-top, ALH TDI. 1989 Tin-top
1983 Air-cool, 225k miles, 180k miles mine. Seven trips to Alaska from 1986 thru 2003.

[mikemtnbike]

Pirate- Just sending you some positive energy. Your postings have shown you to be a resourceful- and realistic- person. You'll get it right.
_________________
1991 Vanagon GL 2.1 AT Westfauxlia. "Frankie" Totaled https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=764510&highlight=carnage
1995 Eurovan Camper "Marzivan"
2020 GTI SE manual