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startwithengine
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:22 pm    Post subject: New to the forum, starting with an engine! Reply with quote

Hi everybody,
Recently I received an almost completely rebuilt '65 40hp type 1 vw engine, for free! I am slowly going to rebuild the rest of the engine, and this summer build a baja bug for tearing around the desert.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Today I got the shroud and generator on.

the parts I am still missing:

Belt pulley
Exhaust
Bellhousing
Fuel system

Super excited about this project!! If anyone has any experience with running these motors in baja bugs, or the best place to get vw parts, I would love to talk. (Sorry if this is the wrong category, this seemed like the best one to me)
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:34 pm    Post subject: Re: New to the forum, starting with an engine! Reply with quote

Welcome to TheSamba!! Sounds like you're off to a great start! I made a video going over some online parts suppliers if you want to check it out-
Link

I made a whole bunch of other videos too if you're interested. If you're building a baja, the mods might move it to the off road section or the readers ride one.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:37 pm    Post subject: Re: New to the forum, starting with an engine! Reply with quote

67ctbug wrote:
If you're building a baja, the mods might move it to the off road section or the readers ride one.

Or the engine forum.

Let me know where and i'll move it.
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startwithengine
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:41 pm    Post subject: Re: New to the forum, starting with an engine! Reply with quote

Glenn wrote:
67ctbug wrote:
If you're building a baja, the mods might move it to the off road section or the readers ride one.

Or the engine forum.

Let me know where and i'll move it.


Great! the offroad section would be great.


Painted the intake and I am working on the carb this weekend.
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startwithengine
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:41 pm    Post subject: Re: New to the forum, starting with an engine! Reply with quote

67ctbug wrote:
Welcome to TheSamba!! Sounds like you're off to a great start! I made a video going over some online parts suppliers if you want to check it out-
Link

I made a whole bunch of other videos too if you're interested. If you're building a baja, the mods might move it to the off road section or the readers ride one.


Thank you! I appreciate the help!
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dustymojave
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:51 pm    Post subject: Re: New to the forum, starting with an engine! Reply with quote

My Baja Bug had a 40 horse engine for decades. Like 340,000miles. I built it myself back in the early 70s. It had 83mm cylinders (1500 size, but made for the shorter 64 mm stroke of the 40hp).

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


It made a lot of people with bigger engines look silly. Never was sure just why. But it worked pretty well. I pre-ran offroad race courses, rock crawled Jeep trails in the Sierras, ran all over the Mojave Desert, and my dad and I carpooled 47 miles across the LA freeways and back for years in it. That engine passed away in 1999 shortly before my dad did.

When it died of old age, the only reason it got replaced with a big block engine (1600 based) was that it was going to cost over 2x as much to rebuild as a 1600.

I put in a Norris 330 cam (same as an Engle 100), full flow oil system with a filter and external cooler, stock 28 PICT carb, and 1-3/8" headers (4 into 2 into 1 with Quiet Pack Muffler by FourTuned Exhaust of Riverside, CA - Long gone company). The distributor I used was from a Porsche 356, kinda similar to a 009, but the advance curve was a little faster to full advance. I used a stock diameter aluminum crank pulley with a sand seal.

You could ditch that early steel oil cooler that blocks air flow to the left side cylinders and head and replace it with a Dog House style cooler and shroud. You could also upgrade to 12Volt electricals.
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Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
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startwithengine
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:42 pm    Post subject: Re: New to the forum, starting with an engine! Reply with quote

dustymojave wrote:
My Baja Bug had a 40 horse engine for decades. Like 340,000miles. I built it myself back in the early 70s. It had 83mm cylinders (1500 size, but made for the shorter 64 mm stroke of the 40hp).

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


It made a lot of people with bigger engines look silly. Never was sure just why. But it worked pretty well. I pre-ran offroad race courses, rock crawled Jeep trails in the Sierras, ran all over the Mojave Desert, and my dad and I carpooled 47 miles across the LA freeways and back for years in it. That engine passed away in 1999 shortly before my dad did.

When it died of old age, the only reason it got replaced with a big block engine (1600 based) was that it was going to cost over 2x as much to rebuild as a 1600.

I put in a Norris 330 cam (same as an Engle 100), full flow oil system with a filter and external cooler, stock 28 PICT carb, and 1-3/8" headers (4 into 2 into 1 with Quiet Pack Muffler by FourTuned Exhaust of Riverside, CA - Long gone company). The distributor I used was from a Porsche 356, kinda similar to a 009, but the advance curve was a little faster to full advance. I used a stock diameter aluminum crank pulley with a sand seal.

You could ditch that early steel oil cooler that blocks air flow to the left side cylinders and head and replace it with a Dog House style cooler and shroud. You could also upgrade to 12Volt electricals.


That's really inspiring thanks!! I did notice the oil cooler looks like it would really block airflow. I like the idea of an external one if I can afford it, definitely something to look into. How much of a pain is a 12v upgrade? and how expensive? I'm starting on kind of a budget and I already have a 6v starter, flexplate, and generator. I have many duplicate 40hp parts that I am going to try to sell and make some extra money to really get this thing running well. Lots of work planned for tomorrow.
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dustymojave
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:13 pm    Post subject: Re: New to the forum, starting with an engine! Reply with quote

Quote:
I did notice the oil cooler looks like it would really block airflow. I like the idea of an external one if I can afford it, definitely something to look into. How much of a pain is a 12v upgrade? and how expensive? I'm starting on kind of a budget and I already have a 6v starter, flexplate, and generator. I have many duplicate 40hp parts that I am going to try to sell and make some extra money to really get this thing running well. Lots of work planned for tomorrow.


With early oil coolers, engines tended to fry the left side cylinders far before the right side. So removing that block is a very good thing to do.

There are a few ways to modify the oil system.

There is the "full flow" setup, which routes the oil out of an oil pump cover with a fitting to a hose and then through hoses to a filter and a cooler before coming back into the end of one of the oil passages in the block (case). This requires drilling out the end of a main oil galley before the oil pressure relief valve and tapping it for a pipe thread. This really SHOULD be done ONLY with the engine apart. Then the stock cooler location can either get a "Dog House" oil cooler and shroud, or a bypass plate. This is my preferred way. I use a Wix 51515R oil filter which will take the high pressure of the pump and a Gene Berg oil pressure relief oil pump cover to deal with cold start pressure problems.

Then there are adapters that bolt to the top of the block in the stock oil cooler location to send oil out to a cooler and/or filter. But since the oil passages in a VW block only send about 1/3 of the oil at the most through the stock cooler, then sending the oil out to a filter and/or cooler from there is not very efficient. It IS kinda good in that this location is after the oil pressure relief valve, so you will never have to worry about blowing off the filter from too much pressure on a cold start (that can be a problem with a "full flow" system - it's fixable though).

A variation of the full flow system is an oil pump with a filter mounted to the cover. This does nothing about cooling though. And for offroad, the oil pump down low like that is vulnerable to getting smacked by rocks and such is is generally in the way of rear bumper cages.

Another variation of the full flow system is an oil pump with a cover that sends oil out the cover to the filter and cooler, then it returns right back to the pump cover then into the case oil passages. No modification of the case is needed for this setup, but it doesn't flow as well as a true "Full-Flow" system. If you don't want to to drill and tap the case, this is probably the 2nd best setup.

To upgrade from 6V to 12V is not real difficult. The parts you need are:
- Battery
- 12V generator or alternator
- 12V generator or alternator stand and strap. The 6V generator is smaller diameter than the 12V. So the casting that supports the generator and the strap that holds it in place don't fit. Then the 12V alternator is fatter at the pulley end so there is a stand that fits the alternator, but also fits the 12V generator.
- The 2 sheet metal plates and spacer ring that bolt to the fan end of the generator/alternator need to be replaced due to different bolt pattern.
- The 6V fan can be used, along with it's hardware, unless you're installing a "dog House" cooler and shroud.
- 12V generator pulley. Alternator uses the same pulley here. The pulley key, shims and nut are the same.
- Fan belt is the same.
- Some alternators have a voltage regulator inside, others use an external regulator. It's different from a 6V regulator. Which ever 12V system you decide to use, you will need to make some minor changes to the wiring. DaleM on here has lots of wiring diagrams to tell you how to do that.
- Starter. The 6V and most 12V starters have a shaft extension that fits into a bushing in the bell housing and have different shaft diameter and gear size. You can buy bushings to convert. not real difficult to replace. Some 12V starters (Auoto-Stick trans) have a short shaft that does not use the bushing in the bell housing. The 12V starter (ALL) requires using a 12V flywheel which uses a larger clutch pressure plate and disc. A 12V flywheel doesn't fit into a 6V bell housing unless you grind a little all around the inside of the bell housing.
BUT...If you use a 12V starter solenoid (smaller cylinder piggy-backed on top of the starter motor) on the 6V stater motor, you can keep the 6V flywheel and clutch and use the 6V starter on 12V for many years. I did on my Baja with the 1385cc engine for well over 300,000 miles.
- Beyond that, all light bulbs need to be changed.
- The turn signal flasher too.
- And the Wiper motor needs a voltage dropping resistor, or better, you can have the motor re-wound. You can buy a re-wound armature for the motor. That's what I did for my '58 Baja.

It may sound like a lot, but it's really not difficult. I 1st converted a Bug from 6V to 12V when I was in high school with no help. And you can get LOTS of help on here.
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Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:26 am    Post subject: Re: New to the forum, starting with an engine! Reply with quote

dustymojave wrote:
My Baja Bug had a 40 horse engine for decades. Like 340,000miles. I built it myself back in the early 70s. It had 83mm cylinders (1500 size, but made for the shorter 64 mm stroke of the 40hp).

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.




is that you? that is a cool photo.
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startwithengine
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:49 pm    Post subject: Re: New to the forum, starting with an engine! Reply with quote

dustymojave wrote:
Quote:
I did notice the oil cooler looks like it would really block airflow. I like the idea of an external one if I can afford it, definitely something to look into. How much of a pain is a 12v upgrade? and how expensive? I'm starting on kind of a budget and I already have a 6v starter, flexplate, and generator. I have many duplicate 40hp parts that I am going to try to sell and make some extra money to really get this thing running well. Lots of work planned for tomorrow.


With early oil coolers, engines tended to fry the left side cylinders far before the right side. So removing that block is a very good thing to do.

There are a few ways to modify the oil system.

There is the "full flow" setup, which routes the oil out of an oil pump cover with a fitting to a hose and then through hoses to a filter and a cooler before coming back into the end of one of the oil passages in the block (case). This requires drilling out the end of a main oil galley before the oil pressure relief valve and tapping it for a pipe thread. This really SHOULD be done ONLY with the engine apart. Then the stock cooler location can either get a "Dog House" oil cooler and shroud, or a bypass plate. This is my preferred way. I use a Wix 51515R oil filter which will take the high pressure of the pump and a Gene Berg oil pressure relief oil pump cover to deal with cold start pressure problems.

Then there are adapters that bolt to the top of the block in the stock oil cooler location to send oil out to a cooler and/or filter. But since the oil passages in a VW block only send about 1/3 of the oil at the most through the stock cooler, then sending the oil out to a filter and/or cooler from there is not very efficient. It IS kinda good in that this location is after the oil pressure relief valve, so you will never have to worry about blowing off the filter from too much pressure on a cold start (that can be a problem with a "full flow" system - it's fixable though).

A variation of the full flow system is an oil pump with a filter mounted to the cover. This does nothing about cooling though. And for offroad, the oil pump down low like that is vulnerable to getting smacked by rocks and such is is generally in the way of rear bumper cages.

Another variation of the full flow system is an oil pump with a cover that sends oil out the cover to the filter and cooler, then it returns right back to the pump cover then into the case oil passages. No modification of the case is needed for this setup, but it doesn't flow as well as a true "Full-Flow" system. If you don't want to to drill and tap the case, this is probably the 2nd best setup.

To upgrade from 6V to 12V is not real difficult. The parts you need are:
- Battery
- 12V generator or alternator
- 12V generator or alternator stand and strap. The 6V generator is smaller diameter than the 12V. So the casting that supports the generator and the strap that holds it in place don't fit. Then the 12V alternator is fatter at the pulley end so there is a stand that fits the alternator, but also fits the 12V generator.
- The 2 sheet metal plates and spacer ring that bolt to the fan end of the generator/alternator need to be replaced due to different bolt pattern.
- The 6V fan can be used, along with it's hardware, unless you're installing a "dog House" cooler and shroud.
- 12V generator pulley. Alternator uses the same pulley here. The pulley key, shims and nut are the same.
- Fan belt is the same.
- Some alternators have a voltage regulator inside, others use an external regulator. It's different from a 6V regulator. Which ever 12V system you decide to use, you will need to make some minor changes to the wiring. DaleM on here has lots of wiring diagrams to tell you how to do that.
- Starter. The 6V and most 12V starters have a shaft extension that fits into a bushing in the bell housing and have different shaft diameter and gear size. You can buy bushings to convert. not real difficult to replace. Some 12V starters (Auoto-Stick trans) have a short shaft that does not use the bushing in the bell housing. The 12V starter (ALL) requires using a 12V flywheel which uses a larger clutch pressure plate and disc. A 12V flywheel doesn't fit into a 6V bell housing unless you grind a little all around the inside of the bell housing.
BUT...If you use a 12V starter solenoid (smaller cylinder piggy-backed on top of the starter motor) on the 6V stater motor, you can keep the 6V flywheel and clutch and use the 6V starter on 12V for many years. I did on my Baja with the 1385cc engine for well over 300,000 miles.
- Beyond that, all light bulbs need to be changed.
- The turn signal flasher too.
- And the Wiper motor needs a voltage dropping resistor, or better, you can have the motor re-wound. You can buy a re-wound armature for the motor. That's what I did for my '58 Baja.

It may sound like a lot, but it's really not difficult. I 1st converted a Bug from 6V to 12V when I was in high school with no help. And you can get LOTS of help on here.


Thats a lot to consider, for sure. Very detailed as well. I may wait on the electrical stuff until I see what kind of bug I am going to get a good deal on to put the engine into. Thanks for the very detailed explanation, though! Also, My whole build is on a budget so I am trying to find ways to make it affordable.
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dustymojave
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:58 pm    Post subject: Re: New to the forum, starting with an engine! Reply with quote

startwithengine wrote:

Thats a lot to consider, for sure. Very detailed as well. I may wait on the electrical stuff until I see what kind of bug I am going to get a good deal on to put the engine into. Thanks for the very detailed explanation, though! Also, My whole build is on a budget so I am trying to find ways to make it affordable.


I've never been a high roller. My Lear jet never landed. So I GET low budget builds, especially since I retired. That's why I said that I only gave up on my 40horse engine when it was going to cost 2x as much as a 1600. That may well have changed since then.

I never saw much true cause for the higher cost other than there is less call for the parts and machine shops don't want to change tooling setup, even though most operations can be done with the same setups. Many of the parts fit both types.
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Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:31 am    Post subject: Re: New to the forum, starting with an engine! Reply with quote

dustymojave wrote:
startwithengine wrote:

Thats a lot to consider, for sure. Very detailed as well. I may wait on the electrical stuff until I see what kind of bug I am going to get a good deal on to put the engine into. Thanks for the very detailed explanation, though! Also, My whole build is on a budget so I am trying to find ways to make it affordable.


I've never been a high roller. My Lear jet never landed. So I GET low budget builds, especially since I retired. That's why I said that I only gave up on my 40horse engine when it was going to cost 2x as much as a 1600. That may well have changed since then.

I never saw much true cause for the higher cost other than there is less call for the parts and machine shops don't want to change tooling setup, even though most operations can be done with the same setups. Many of the parts fit both types.


Right on. I've been reading the baja for virgins page and I've decided i'm going to look for a 69 or later bug to start my project. ALso I am looking for some 40hp engine parts if you are trying to sell any from your old one Smile
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:45 pm    Post subject: Re: New to the forum, starting with an engine! Reply with quote

Well it's always nice to bring in a little cash. But that engine has been sitting mostly outdoors since I took it out of the car nearly 25 years ago. I just looked at it yesterday afternoon and saw the Mojave Desert inside the distributor hole in the top of the case and the intake manifold open because it hasn't had a carb on it since it came out of the car. It was taken out of the car because it was worn out. The heads are cracked, the case was at its last overbore for bearings when I built it for the Baja. If I took your money for any of it I'd feel awfully guilty for a very long time for handing it to you. It was a good engine in its day, but like humans, it reached the end of its usable life span. I took the usable parts off it when I set it aside. I only still have it because I have the space, and it's of sentimental value to me. Not because any of it is usable. Kinda like an old trophy on the mantel or a picture on the wall of your wife when she was young (I have some of those too).
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Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:56 pm    Post subject: Re: New to the forum, starting with an engine! Reply with quote

hmm- I see a "olds cools" willys cab!
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:50 pm    Post subject: Re: New to the forum, starting with an engine! Reply with quote

I noticed that too. And just spotted a recently arrived similar vintage wagon in a neighbor's yard yesterday. I've always been fond of that vintage Willys Jeep.
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Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:41 am    Post subject: Re: New to the forum, starting with an engine! Reply with quote

dustymojave wrote:
Well it's always nice to bring in a little cash. But that engine has been sitting mostly outdoors since I took it out of the car nearly 25 years ago. I just looked at it yesterday afternoon and saw the Mojave Desert inside the distributor hole in the top of the case and the intake manifold open because it hasn't had a carb on it since it came out of the car. It was taken out of the car because it was worn out. The heads are cracked, the case was at its last overbore for bearings when I built it for the Baja. If I took your money for any of it I'd feel awfully guilty for a very long time for handing it to you. It was a good engine in its day, but like humans, it reached the end of its usable life span. I took the usable parts off it when I set it aside. I only still have it because I have the space, and it's of sentimental value to me. Not because any of it is usable. Kinda like an old trophy on the mantel or a picture on the wall of your wife when she was young (I have some of those too).


Ok, worth a shot. Ill keep looking on the classifieds.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:01 am    Post subject: Re: New to the forum, starting with an engine! Reply with quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Last week I made some more progress with the intake manifold and carburator bolted on. I also got a free air filter--the reusable kind with the oil in it! The guy said that it is from a 50s vw.

Still on the hunt for an actual body for this engine, I really want to go with a post '69 for the better suspension, but there's so many pre '69s and very few post! Which seems like it should be the other way around...?

Hoping to buy a pulley and belt from a guy this weekend, then all it's missing is spark plug wires!
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:22 am    Post subject: Re: New to the forum, starting with an engine! Reply with quote

And every time you think you have seen it all.....
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:41 am    Post subject: Re: New to the forum, starting with an engine! Reply with quote

[quote="startwithengine"]
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Budget turbo?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:44 am    Post subject: Re: New to the forum, starting with an engine! Reply with quote

That’s a 1967 air cleaner, one year only...and don’t hook the heater duct to the intake snorkel like that. Likely will make things more difficult to tune...won’t do any noticeable good at the best...also, might cause engine leaks at the pulley end because you are working against the crank case ventilation... Wink

Nice project though. Enjoy!
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1800 Type 4 Berrien 295

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