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Zundfolge1432 Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004 Posts: 12452
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:59 am Post subject: Re: torque wrench needed |
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As mentioned at least twice in earlier posts your Wrench is most accurate at mid range unless using beam type. Lowest I’ve seen on VW is about 4-5 inch pounds checking steering box. For lower torque values you are better served using 1/4 drive wrench reading inch pounds. Conversion easy I. E. 12 inch lbs equals one ft. Lb. |
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Cusser Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 31268 Location: Hot Arizona
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:04 am Post subject: Re: torque wrench needed |
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crankbait09 wrote: |
In the Muir book it mentions needing a wrench that measures 0-250. But how close to zero do you actually find yourself going? |
Don't put that much faith in the Muir book. O'Reilly has loaner torque wrenches that go to 250 ft lbs, I've borrowed it a few times. With a 250 ft lb capacity, I doubt that one should use it for anything under 50 ft lbs, use a smaller capacity torque wrench.
O'Reilly and now HF list 250 ft lb torque wrenches for sale for $100 list. But for me, loaner one is fine; my own largest torque wrench goes to 150 ft lbs. _________________ 1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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crankbait09 Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2016 Posts: 1297 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:04 am Post subject: Re: torque wrench needed |
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I get the mid range point, but I figured it wouldn't do me much good to have a 10 - "X" range, if I actually need less than 10. Just wasn't sure how often that was actually needed. |
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pyrOman Fire Master
Joined: July 21, 2003 Posts: 12400 Location: Over 2002 posts deleted!
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:35 am Post subject: Re: torque wrench needed |
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General rule is lower 20% of whatever range is not trustworthy! So like if you have a 100 pound wrench, should not be used at say 10 pounds. Again, that's the general rule, as a calibration tech I've seen some wrenches be "good" all the way down low, but they should not be trusted all the time. If you need to go low, it's best to get a lower range wrench. I started doing calibration in the Navy and torque wrench procedures call for points at 25%, 50% and 100%, FWIW. |
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TDCTDI Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013 Posts: 12815 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:45 am Post subject: Re: torque wrench needed |
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pyrOman wrote: |
General rule is lower 20% of whatever range is not trustworthy! So like if you have a 100 pound wrench, should not be used at say 10 pounds. Again, that's the general rule, as a calibration tech I've seen some wrenches be "good" all the way down low, but they should not be trusted all the time. If you need to go low, it's best to get a lower range wrench. I started doing calibration in the Navy and torque wrench procedures call for points at 25%, 50% and 100%, FWIW. |
How do the digital torque wrenches compare to the click type VS beam type in accuracy at the extremes? _________________ Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:05 am Post subject: Re: torque wrench needed |
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pyrOman wrote: |
General rule is lower 20% of whatever range is not trustworthy! So like if you have a 100 pound wrench, should not be used at say 10 pounds. Again, that's the general rule, as a calibration tech I've seen some wrenches be "good" all the way down low, but they should not be trusted all the time. If you need to go low, it's best to get a lower range wrench. I started doing calibration in the Navy and torque wrench procedures call for points at 25%, 50% and 100%, FWIW. |
True....but thats a VERY general rule.
Typical ACTUAL tolerances of most upper low to mid level torque wrenches....WHEN NEW.....is +/- 4% of FULL scale.....on HF, Sears and similar range wrenches......and +/- 2% of full scale.
And the point about lower torque ranges on these wrenches needs to be shown with the math to really make the point. The variance is actually less of an issue at super low torque than it is at very high torque.
With a basic torque wrench like the Harbor Freight clickers with a range of say 0-150 dt lbs at +/- 4% accuracy.....
30 fl. Lbs = a variance +/- 1.2 ft pounds.
20 ft. Lbs = a variance of +/- 0.8 ft lbs.
10 ft lbs = a variance of +/- 0.4 lbs.
Not that bad....but that is NEW. Within a few months...especially if you do not remove the spring load when you are finished working with it......you can add about 5% minimum to the negative side.....so really.....you still have the same +/- 4 of full scale.....but your setting will be inaccurate. A setting of 30 ft. Lbs may be 1.5 lbs low already.
On the high end of the scale at say 150 ft. Lbs that +/4%.....becomes +/- 6 ft lbs. Still not tragic.....but as the spring really starts to get weak with age.....the very upper and lower ends of the scale error become larger depending on the spring type.
So really.....as was already noted....if you need HIGH accuracy for a full range......either buy a 2% wrench from one of the better vendors like Seekonk, Precision instruments, snap on etc....and take good care of it and have it recalibrated once a year for $30......or buy the bargain priced ones from HF, Lowes etc.....and plan for a "useful" range of about 20 to 125 on a wrench with a 150 ft lbs scale.
Also.....a beam type torque wrench is not necessarily 100% accurate full scale either and also not true that it never gets out of calibration. The quality of the steel in the beam and hub....the hardening quality etc....all come into play. Also...with age....all steel fatigues.
Just because the pointer comes back to 0 does not mean what it reads between 0 and max is accurate.
It is true that the beam type wrenches have...in general....a finer/narrower +/- range and wirk better at the lower ranges. They are more linear.
I prefer by beam type wrench for spark plugs. You can feel when the gasket crushes.
Also as noted.....when you need accuracy in the 15 pound range or less.....that is getting into inch pounds range.
I use my inch pound wrench for 3 things on my 411s and 412s.
1. Rear wheel bearing preload setting
2. Steering box bearing preload setting
3. Transmission differential and pinion bearing preload setting
I am also playing with making a jig right now that will allow me to use it as a pull gauge to measure drag in inch pounds for checking piston drag in cylinders after a plateau finish honing job. Its accurate to +/- 0.9 inch pounds so thats not bad.
Ray |
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Zundfolge1432 Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004 Posts: 12452
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:32 am Post subject: Re: torque wrench needed |
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Cusser wrote: |
crankbait09 wrote: |
In the Muir book it mentions needing a wrench that measures 0-250. But how close to zero do you actually find yourself going? |
Don't put that much faith in the Muir book. O'Reilly has loaner torque wrenches that go to 250 ft lbs, I've borrowed it a few times. With a 250 ft lb capacity, I doubt that one should use it for anything under 50 ft lbs, use a smaller capacity torque wrench.
O'Reilly and now HF list 250 ft lb torque wrenches for sale for $100 list. But for me, loaner one is fine; my own largest torque wrench goes to 150 ft lbs. |
Would you really trust a loaner to do precision work? I’d wonder how often it’s been dropped or used as a hammer, left with tension on spring or when it receives a proper calibration check. Just sayin. |
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Cusser Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 31268 Location: Hot Arizona
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:48 am Post subject: Re: torque wrench needed |
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Zundfolge1432 wrote: |
Would you really trust a loaner to do precision work? I’d wonder how often it’s been dropped or used as a hammer, left with tension on spring or when it receives a proper calibration check. Just sayin. |
Understand what you say. I use my HF electric impact wrench (250 ft lbs) and/or my HF 150 ft lb torque wrench first, then check/tighten if necessary with the O'Reilly loaner unit. Yep, I'm a trusting guy !!! _________________ 1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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easy e Samba Member
Joined: May 28, 2008 Posts: 3930 Location: 1 hr north of Santa Barbara
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Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:22 pm Post subject: Re: torque wrench needed |
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Happy last day pyrOman!!
Zundfolge1432 wrote: |
Cali_Army_Guy wrote: |
busman78 wrote: |
Click types are good but nothing beats a beam type, they are not expensive and they do not need to be calibrated. |
That is true, but I’ve been in situations where I was tightening something and couldn’t read the numbers due to the angle I was working at. In those cases the click type is awesome. |
The click type or micrometer setting is what professionals use because it’s foolproof. It’s also preferred by the US Govt and all of the aircraft manufacturers and repair facilities I’ve seen. The newest wrenches are digital and some have a feature whereby the wrench gives an audible tone or beep when torque specification is reached. |
I've gotten a little interested in the digital type... for apparetnly also having the ability to determine turning torque (for bearing preload).
I'm not pushing this one... just snagged it from a search:
https://www.harborfreight.com/12-in-drive-digital-torque-adapter-63917.html
I've seen them offered in in-lb and two separate ranges of ft-lb. _________________ aka: Evan
Spreadsheet for Bus RPM, based on gearing & tire size (Excel format)
Searchable, click-navigable 1958 Bus Parts List |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 1:57 pm Post subject: Re: torque wrench needed |
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easy e wrote: |
Happy last day pyrOman!!
Zundfolge1432 wrote: |
Cali_Army_Guy wrote: |
busman78 wrote: |
Click types are good but nothing beats a beam type, they are not expensive and they do not need to be calibrated. |
That is true, but I’ve been in situations where I was tightening something and couldn’t read the numbers due to the angle I was working at. In those cases the click type is awesome. |
The click type or micrometer setting is what professionals use because it’s foolproof. It’s also preferred by the US Govt and all of the aircraft manufacturers and repair facilities I’ve seen. The newest wrenches are digital and some have a feature whereby the wrench gives an audible tone or beep when torque specification is reached. |
I've gotten a little interested in the digital type... for apparetnly also having the ability to determine turning torque (for bearing preload).
I'm not pushing this one... just snagged it from a search:
https://www.harborfreight.com/12-in-drive-digital-torque-adapter-63917.html
I've seen them offered in in-lb and two separate ranges of ft-lb. |
Yes....you can use a tool like that for setting pre-load...but you need to rig up a spinner knobs for whatever handle you turn it with.
I was looking at solutions like that for a bearing preload tool for a long time as well.
The problem with digital gauges...and bearing preload measurements in general...is that you need to be smooth and uniform.....and the handle length needs to be well planned....because unlike an analog needle gauge, the readings will change by the microsecond at every little flex and bump.
You should check out this guys site on YouTube....great tool testing and reviews.
Want to see whats in that HF digital torque adapter?
It may look shitty in this video...but its perfectly functional.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSsvcNtUGtA
BUT....the problem is that the minimum range of that torque adapter...is listed as 29.5 Ft. lbs. That is 354 inch lbs minimum. Not useful for most bearing preload. Maybe they have a 1/4" drive version with inch pounds?
Ray |
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easy e Samba Member
Joined: May 28, 2008 Posts: 3930 Location: 1 hr north of Santa Barbara
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Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 6:53 pm Post subject: Re: torque wrench needed |
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Thanks Ray,
Brand: BikeMaster
Specs (three separate devices):
- 1/4" drive measures 2.2 to 22.1 ft lb range
- 3/8" drive measures 19.9 to 99.6 ft lb range
- 1/2" drive measures 29.5 to 147.5 ft lb range
Even the lowest range one is not low enough for preload:
_________________ aka: Evan
Spreadsheet for Bus RPM, based on gearing & tire size (Excel format)
Searchable, click-navigable 1958 Bus Parts List |
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7527 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 3:58 pm Post subject: Re: torque wrench needed |
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For several years I lived two doors' down from Sears;
This was the first time that I had my own 'real' shop.
Bought any/everything I could there as a result..
Years later (20 years later) my Sears 1/2" and especially 3/8" torque wrenches are downright battered looking.
And I finally got some money to go ahead and plunk down on some name brand ones from a truck.
In the meantime, my longtime friend, a certified A&P aircraft mechanic, has a set of Snap-On, calibrated/stickered torque wrenches, shiny-new in the red boxes.
We spent an afternoon, drinking beer and tightening/loosening and re-doing all manner of different fasteners using both sets of wrenches.
We would 'walk up' onto different numbers, alternating between each..
And,
Y'know what?
Those old beat-up Craftsman torque wrenches would read close enough to the Snap-On, that we couldn't really tell the difference..
So,
I'm thinking that after 20+ years, the old ones are less likely to change vs. newer stuff.
Maybe mine were old enough to be the 'good old' Sears stuff?
I dunno.
But,
Take Home Message is try your torque wrench out against a known good one before you pass judgement upon it.
There is a good and a bad of everything..
Don't judge my work by my beat-up old Crapsman torque wrench,
I consider it a badge of honor..! _________________ Bus Motor Build
What’s That Noise?!? |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 5:50 pm Post subject: Re: torque wrench needed |
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Clatter wrote: |
For several years I lived two doors' down from Sears;
This was the first time that I had my own 'real' shop.
Bought any/everything I could there as a result..
Years later (20 years later) my Sears 1/2" and especially 3/8" torque wrenches are downright battered looking.
And I finally got some money to go ahead and plunk down on some name brand ones from a truck.
In the meantime, my longtime friend, a certified A&P aircraft mechanic, has a set of Snap-On, calibrated/stickered torque wrenches, shiny-new in the red boxes.
We spent an afternoon, drinking beer and tightening/loosening and re-doing all manner of different fasteners using both sets of wrenches.
We would 'walk up' onto different numbers, alternating between each..
And,
Y'know what?
Those old beat-up Craftsman torque wrenches would read close enough to the Snap-On, that we couldn't really tell the difference..
So,
I'm thinking that after 20+ years, the old ones are less likely to change vs. newer stuff.
Maybe mine were old enough to be the 'good old' Sears stuff?
I dunno.
But,
Take Home Message is try your torque wrench out against a known good one before you pass judgement upon it.
There is a good and a bad of everything..
Don't judge my work by my beat-up old Crapsman torque wrench,
I consider it a badge of honor..! |
Nope.....while the old wrenches were maybe made of better metal....and the parts had better fit, finish and plating......click type torque wrenches have had issues with getting inaccurate with age/spring fatigue.....in every single one ever created.
However....For sure....the old Craftsman tools....were made just as well as anything else 30 years ago. A Snap on may have a nicer shape....better polish etc......but virtually every wrench that went to 150-ish pounds that both Craftsman and Snap on Proto, Mac etc. .....Sold......were all calibrated to the same 4% of the dial basic range.
A more professional wrench or wren hes purposely built to lower upper torque....like a 75 ft lb wrench...could be had with maybe 2% tolerance.
If your wrench is 30 years old and you always kept it turned down when not in use...chances are its within a couple of ft. lbs of calibration....and your friend with the Snap on wrenches kept his well too..... sure.....they should be comparable.
However...a word on comparisons.....torquing and working the sane fastener shows you nothing. I cannot tell you how many customers of mine I have had with wrenches way out of calibration....who validate that they are fine by testing it on the same bolt with a new wrench.
Every single time you torque...loosen and retorque a fastener.....it ends up in a totally differnt place....angle snd degree of turn wise......and requires slightly different torque...usually lower to get the nut or bolt back to the same place.
All bolts stretch and fatigue every time you tighten them down.
I have had to prove this to NUMEROUS customers....with a precison angle gauge.
Then take their supposedly...."same/same" wrenches down and spend $30 each....and find that the old one.....is off....always.
There is a high chance that both of your wrenches are off. Ray |
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Zundfolge1432 Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004 Posts: 12452
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Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 6:25 pm Post subject: Re: torque wrench needed |
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Clatter wrote: |
For several years I lived two doors' down from Sears;
This was the first time that I had my own 'real' shop.
Bought any/everything I could there as a result..
Years later (20 years later) my Sears 1/2" and especially 3/8" torque wrenches are downright battered looking.
And I finally got some money to go ahead and plunk down on some name brand ones from a truck.
In the meantime, my longtime friend, a certified A&P aircraft mechanic, has a set of Snap-On, calibrated/stickered torque wrenches, shiny-new in the red boxes.
We spent an afternoon, drinking beer and tightening/loosening and re-doing all manner of different fasteners using both sets of wrenches.
We would 'walk up' onto different numbers, alternating between each..
And,
Y'know what?
Those old beat-up Craftsman torque wrenches would read close enough to the Snap-On, that we couldn't really tell the difference..
So,
I'm thinking that after 20+ years, the old ones are less likely to change vs. newer stuff.
Maybe mine were old enough to be the 'good old' Sears stuff?
I dunno.
But,
Take Home Message is try your torque wrench out against a known good one before you pass judgement upon it.
There is a good and a bad of everything..
Don't judge my work by my beat-up old Crapsman torque wrench,
I consider it a badge of honor..! |
True story, a friend of mine now deceased ran a VW repair shop locally. He started around 1970 and started buying Snap On tools in early 70s as shop got busier. We were talking about torque wrenches and he was telling me about the wrench he’d been using for over 30 years. I offered to take it to work and have it checked for him. When I picked it up they said the wrench was within limits and gave it a clean bill of health. He never dropped it and always backed it down to lowest setting but in those years he built thousands of engines which is a good argument for buying used calibrated tooling. Just choose wisely. |
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busman78 Samba Member
Joined: August 17, 2004 Posts: 4518 Location: Oklahoma City, OK
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Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:09 pm Post subject: Re: torque wrench needed |
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I believe it, my 1971 Craftsman went in about four times over the 46 years I used it and each time was told it was within specs, still got charged for the test. Last year I dropped it, it hit hard, that was it, clipped the engine stand just the right way to jam the handle. Have a new click type Craftsman, plastic handle, just feels squishy, it works but in no way do I trust it like my old one.
Wear can take it toll but I feel that how you treat the torque wrench or any tool for that matter, store it, don't use to max limits will make all the difference in the longevity and accuracy. |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:37 pm Post subject: Re: torque wrench needed |
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All of you are spot on!
The single biggest item that makes torque wrenches go out of calibration.....is leavibg the spring under tension.....that and build quality combined.
But a word or warning.....do not just take an answer of "its still jn spec" when gettibg recalibrated. Ask them for the numbers......and ask them what spec they are referencing. I have seen easily....10 times as many tool shops....as compared to real calibration companies..... that list "torque wrench calibration" as a specialty....and all they really have is a crappy $100 transducer ...that itself has no calibration certification....or has not been recalibrated since they bought it off ebay.
They look at a torque wrench...figure its 4% of max scale......and if it falls close wherever they read it....its done. They need to take a range of readings and record them. This tells you whether it works just barely in spec at one end of the scale or is fairly linear through the scale. Ray |
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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22568 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:49 pm Post subject: Re: torque wrench needed |
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It should be traceable to the Knights who say “ NIST” _________________ .ssS! |
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BulliBill Samba Member
Joined: July 09, 2004 Posts: 4561 Location: St Charles, MO
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Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:36 pm Post subject: Re: torque wrench needed |
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easy e wrote: |
Thanks Ray,
Brand: BikeMaster
Specs (three separate devices):
- 1/4" drive measures 2.2 to 22.1 ft lb range
- 3/8" drive measures 19.9 to 99.6 ft lb range
- 1/2" drive measures 29.5 to 147.5 ft lb range
Even the lowest range one is not low enough for preload:
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Hi Evan and all,
I've got one of those inch/lb torque wrenches in that Bentley manual illustration above NOS in the box, I've never used it yet. Very cool wrench. It measures 0 thru 35 cmkp which I believe is about 0 thru 30.37 inch/pounds. Pretty damn sensitive!
I just bought a $40 eTORK ( www.etork.com ) model #c2250 range 50 thru 250 inch/lb "click" type 3/8" drive wrench off Amazon, primarily to use for tightening the oil strainer plate nuts to 6 ft/lbs = 72 in/lbs. I always hated guessing on tightening those cap nuts manually.
Bill _________________ I'm looking for these license plate frames for my fleet:
Coeur D'Alene - Lake Shore Volkswagen
Mission VW - San Fernando
Thornton VW - Stockton
Thanks for any help!
Last edited by BulliBill on Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:06 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Max Welton Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2003 Posts: 10697 Location: Black Forest, CO
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Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:07 pm Post subject: Re: torque wrench needed |
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I'm no pro like some of you guys. Here is how I approached the issue of calibrating my torque wrench.
I know what water weighs by volume. I know that one foot-pound is one pound applied at one foot. If I want 10 foot-lbs, I apply 10 pounds of water in the special weightless walmart (or equivalent) bag at 12 inches. Gravity provides the force and I supply the math.
The accuracy of the math falls off as the wrench deflects away from 90 degrees, but I could measure the angle and apply some trig to correct. And I have not accounted for the weight of the wrench handle itself. Not undoable of course. I could weigh the tool and find the balance point then figure that in.
Like I said, I'm no pro. I have time to fool around with stuff like this instead of paying a shop to calibrate my wrench and hoping I got my moneys worth for the service.
So ... how you like my test rig?
Max _________________ 1967 Type-3 Fastback
Under the Knife https://shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=151582
Home Stretch https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=767836 |
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iowegian Samba Curmudgeon
Joined: February 16, 2005 Posts: 9826 Location: Somewhere between Dubuque and Keokuk
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Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:43 pm Post subject: Re: torque wrench needed |
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Max Welton wrote: |
I'm no pro like some of you guys. Here is how I approached the issue of calibrating my torque wrench.
I know what water weighs by volume. I know that one foot-pound is one pound applied at one foot. If I want 10 foot-lbs, I apply 10 pounds of water in the special weightless walmart (or equivalent) bag at 12 inches. Gravity provides the force and I supply the math.
The accuracy of the math falls off as the wrench deflects away from 90 degrees, but I could measure the angle and apply some trig to correct. And I have not accounted for the weight of the wrench handle itself. Not undoable of course. I could weigh the tool and find the balance point then figure that in.
Like I said, I'm no pro. I have time to fool around with stuff like this instead of paying a shop to calibrate my wrench and hoping I got my moneys worth for the service.
So ... how you like my test rig?
Max |
Just one question, Max. Do you need to use water? What would the result be if you used 10 lbs of beer? |
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