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Type-4 2413 using 104's for a bay camper
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Zed999
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:44 am    Post subject: Type-4 2413 using 104's for a bay camper Reply with quote

I can't find anyone who has built an engine like this, but then 99% of internet users seem to be building for HP and running them in cars?

The engine before this was a 2020cc Wasser crank Type-1 engine. C35, 40/35.5, fat exhaust, DRLA 40's. A car engine if ever there was one, useless under 3,000- 3500rpm in a heavy bus. Lesson learned and possibly over reacted to....

I got a race case and was intending to build a bigger type-1 but it gets quite costly for nice quality bits to fill it with. Then the light went on and I realised that the type-4 equivalent to a mild torquey 1776 type-1 would be 2413cc's. Surely the way to go for grunt.

Then I got a bee in my bonnet about using as many original VW parts as possible.

I was all set to only use aftermarket barrels and pistons and carbs but everything else stock. Then someone pointed out that the 2L con rods are very heavy and h-beam ones are half the weight. The thought of fat slipper pistons on those seemed risky, just a hunch, I'm an engineer but zilch knowledge of engine design. I guessed and bought a set.

The heads were a problem, I tried to source a pair of 1800 heads with the bigger valves but after a while I only had one good one so I used 1700 heads to lush things along.

That's the spec. Stock 2l everything, stock exhaust,, 1700 heads, lightweight (exactly half stock) rods, 104mm B&P's. Already writing this I know you'll mostly be thinking I'm some kind of idiot, that's what everyone said apart from my long time machinist, builder and eccentric engine experimenter and a few guys in Germany. He wondered, like me, how it would turn out.

The heads got some work aimed at coping better with the increased capacity. Valve seats left in but cut to cope with 42mm stainless intakes, port work to turn them into venturi shape that extended into the seats and also gradually opened up to match to manifold etc. Manifold fixings were sleeved too.

The plan was simple, stockish behaviour, more capacity = more torque, low down torque that is, like a turbo diesel perhaps.

Also, unlike most of you (and this caused forehead slapping disbelief) I was quite happy to leave 50hp in the tin for my lusted after low rev torque, who knows it might even last longer?

Total spend approx £2500 including a "turnkey" 2l lucky purchase that had been several peoples spare in a shed, just in case. It looked awful, but turned out to be stock sizes and didn't need machining of anything, just new bearings. That total also includes powder coating everything, manifolds, linkage, bearings, valves and guides and gaskets. I already had the 1700 heads/rockers and the exhaust system. The machining and porting was done for beer money considering what it involved.

I got what I wanted, 180ft/lbs torque at 2,000rpm and max power at 70mph in 4th. If I say what the HP is it gives a very false impression of what it's like to drive. Oh go on then, 102 @ about 4,000rpm.

I know, I know, I know - I could have had 150 torque and same HP but the torque graph would have been the other way round, increasing with revs, .more like a 1700.

Does anyone on here have a similar engine? A mass cheap end engine rebuilder here in the uk offers one with stock rods and unworked 2l heads but I've never come across anyone who has one. I'd like to compare, particularly to see the effect of the heavy rods - maybe I could have done it even cheaper!

I'll post some head pics later, the compression was kept in check using a big deck height, the fin nearest the barrels was machined right off as it was almost touching the barrel fins, blocking the air flow and I guess once opened up for the barrels there wasn't a lot of strength left in it anyway. Smile

The engine pushes my heavy late bay poptop camper along very nicely and runs cool, both heads and oil.
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bugguy1967
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Type-4 2413 using 104's for a bay camper Reply with quote

104 is kinda thin for a Bus, unless it's an early panel van. I'd do 103 if I had a six-stud conversion, but with the normal 4-stud, you'll likely have leaks.

There are also 102mm cylinders. You'd need to make some pistons with a tighter compression height.

If you can afford it, European Motor Works in Hawthorne can help you with a six-stud conversion.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Type-4 2413 using 104's for a bay camper Reply with quote

bugguy1967 wrote:
104 is kinda thin for a Bus, unless it's an early panel van. I'd do 103 if I had a six-stud conversion, but with the normal 4-stud, you'll likely have leaks.

There are also 102mm cylinders. You'd need to make some pistons with a tighter compression height.

If you can afford it, European Motor Works in Hawthorne can help you with a six-stud conversion.


Ah, well it's a bit too late for second thoughts, it was finished 2 years and 12,000 miles ago. Smile
The 104's looks pretty thick but don't have much cooling fin. The builder has vast experience of part/material quality and remarked that the barrels were rock hard where he had to open up the head stud holes a little. He didn't think them overly thin. I may be wrong but I think 102 is as thin as 104 but have more cooling fin? Either way, max head temp so far has been 190°C (375°F) and that was a long hill at 70mph satnav, about as bad as it gets in the uk.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Type-4 2413 using 104's for a bay camper Reply with quote

Hi!

The Germans often use 36-40PDSIT carbs(type4 1.8S),flat top pistons,914-ish cam and reworked stock heads to produce 110Hp out of a 2.0Ltr.Looks stock-and with an carb-spacer it enables you to use the stock airfilter housing.
On Facebook search for Kummetat Käfer-Tuning,it shows quite some pictures.
Arent the 1.7Ltr heads the weaker-cast ones?

Cheers,Arnoud
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Type-4 2413 using 104's for a bay camper Reply with quote

1700 to 2400...
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To get this running at under 8:1, carving out the head wasn't going to do it. I can see the engineering attraction of getting over this with valve overlap, the numbers head you that way even if you were trying to go the other. Before and after...
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Inlet seat adjusting for a 42mm valve...
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The cut is virtually the depth of the seat and continued out into the head. Pretty radical I thought. Rob the builder's view is otherwise but he used to build one day (if you were lucky) race engines and has personally pushed every boundary to destruction. The new stainless valves were given a back but too.
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Inlet...
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Terrible pic of exhaust, sorry about that...
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All done.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Type-4 2413 using 104's for a bay camper Reply with quote

Nice to see someone thinking outside-of-the-box..


Many would worry that the large-bore cylinders would develop leaks at the head..

Your heads are still sealing well after 12,000 miles?
Have you done a leak-down test?

It definitely flies in the face of conventional practice..
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Type-4 2413 using 104's for a bay camper Reply with quote

ArnoudH wrote:
Hi!

The Germans often use 36-40PDSIT carbs(type4 1.8S),flat top pistons,914-ish cam and reworked stock heads to produce 110Hp out of a 2.0Ltr.Looks stock-and with an carb-spacer it enables you to use the stock airfilter housing.
On Facebook search for Kummetat Käfer-Tuning,it shows quite some pictures.
Arent the 1.7Ltr heads the weaker-cast ones?

Cheers,Arnoud
Hi Arnaud, I'd have really liked to run it on the stock carbs and air filter or stock FI, that's my mentality, but I had the DRLA40's and wimped out of putting in the effort. Also my bus doesn't have the hatch over the engine which makes some things more difficult.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Type-4 2413 using 104's for a bay camper Reply with quote

I've had a 102x71 in a 1600kg Split camper for over 15 years /100,000km . it had a top end overhaul 2 years ago .end float still at .004" . That is in semi tropical heat as well .
The cylinders were custom built at the time and would be as thin in the wall as 104s .
the hydraulic cam is a grind from an Aussie 6 cylinder muscle car that was advanced to give low torque . it makes just over 110 whp but can crawl up a hill in first at 1000rpm . runs out of puff at 5500 .

The engine builder used cheap SBC hyper pistons and machined a dish in the pistons to get the final compression ratio (8 to 1 ) after the heads had been opened up to un shroud the valves .
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Type-4 2413 using 104's for a bay camper Reply with quote

One thing more difficult without the hatch over the engine is fitting a centre mount linkage. There isn't one marketed for type4, or I couldn't find one. The best I could find ends up round the back of the carbs as you look in, a nightmare to balance I thought.

I made some plates to fit it where I could get at it.
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It ends up lightly rubbing HT leads whatever you do it you want the angles equal, which you do.
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Another thing I had to cobble together was a lever on the carb to allow me to set idle and running balance separately without adjusting the fiddly rods. You can tell which bit I made, it was supposed to be prototype, but it works and...
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And finally the combined oil pressure light/gauge sender needed extending. I used a Volvo flexible brake hose and made the bracket from the oil cooler support which wouldn't wrap around the new oil cooler which is bigger than the original.
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That's about it.
Rolling road thing with a blocked idle and non functioning pump in one carb. 32/57/145/190/.2's
It has 34/60/148/190/.2 now but needs sorting properly. AFR kit in the post.
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It's got torque and enough HP when the torque drols drops off, it pulls very well at 60-70-80mph, no slouch.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Type-4 2413 using 104's for a bay camper Reply with quote

Wreck wrote:
I've had a 102x71 in a 1600kg Split camper for over 15 years /100,000km . it had a top end overhaul 2 years ago .end float still at .004" . That is in semi tropical heat as well .
The cylinders were custom built at the time and would be as thin in the wall as 104s .
the hydraulic cam is a grind from an Aussie 6 cylinder muscle car that was advanced to give low torque . it makes just over 110 whp but can crawl up a hill in first at 1000rpm . runs out of puff at 5500 .

The engine builder used cheap SBC hyper pistons and machined a dish in the pistons to get the final compression ratio (8 to 1 ) after the heads had been opened up to un shroud the valves .
Excellent! Just the reply I was hoping for. My B&P were AA hypers, all were bang on weight with one (I think) chrome ring.
It sounds like you have little more cam than stock, or better heads?
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Type-4 2413 using 104's for a bay camper Reply with quote

Clatter wrote:
Nice to see someone thinking outside-of-the-box..


Many would worry that the large-bore cylinders would develop leaks at the head..

Your heads are still sealing well after 12,000 miles?
Have you done a leak-down test?

It definitely flies in the face of conventional practice..
So far so good, though I haven't done a leak-down test. They're only 5mm radius bigger than 2L, not really so big if you look at like that. I suspect the large deck height low compression helps and the milled off fin paradoxically helps the cooling. Not fitting bigger valve seats? Minimal port work? And you can't rev it, it's pointless above 4,500. So pretty well the opposite of most peoples goals and use.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Type-4 2413 using 104's for a bay camper Reply with quote

I had only a few minutes earlier. I didn't even read your post. That's insane torque at 2,000rpm!

At the incredibly low revs your engine operates, heavy rods won't make any difference. Neither will piston weight. Also, I think you could have opened up your chambers to an acceptable amount of volume. I think your engine would run cooler, make more torque, and require less timing with more squish.

If you ever re-do your combo, carve-out those chambers and dish the crown if you can't achieve enough volume at the head. Run deck to .040". Run your theoretical DCR on the safe upper side, and use the W7DTC plugs, properly gapped. Those CSP runner diameters are larger than your 1.7 ports. Filling them in and matching them would improve cylinder filling. Lastly, if your engine is just ballpark tuned, I'm sure you'll find more using a wideband.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Type-4 2413 using 104's for a bay camper Reply with quote

I guess bus people like low rpms. Very Happy
PRETTY CLEVER

I really don't know why it is either 96 or 103, with the type-4 cylinders.
IMO I'd want something in the middle.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:46 am    Post subject: Re: Type-4 2413 using 104's for a bay camper Reply with quote

Zed999 the cam is only just over .373" at the valve and 225 degrees @50 .
Heads are now getting very old 2lt VW square port castings with 42 in 36 ex . with a 1 5/8 custom header .

Horses for courses , mine is in a Camper set up for offroad . There is nothing like the look on on the face of a 4wd owner thats bogged on some sand tracks when a 1964 bus idles past them over the same soft sand with no real effort .
that takes low down torque and low gearing to achieve that, plus the right tyre pressures .

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Just thought I'd share a few more revs to keep Modak happy .
This is a friends Dyno sheet 2.6 in a bay panel . still a hydraulic grind and not large by big type 4 standards.I think it's to a Dodge V8 grind and what the cam grinders recommended for his application .Thats converted flywheel . It just over 160 WHP with a good set of heads though it's under carbed and exhaust is on the small side. 44 IDFs and a 1 5/8 header .
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:03 am    Post subject: Re: Type-4 2413 using 104's for a bay camper Reply with quote

bugguy1967 wrote:
I had only a few minutes earlier. I didn't even read your post. That's insane torque at 2,000rpm!

At the incredibly low revs your engine operates, heavy rods won't make any difference. Neither will piston weight. Also, I think you could have opened up your chambers to an acceptable amount of volume. I think your engine would run cooler, make more torque, and require less timing with more squish.

If you ever re-do your combo, carve-out those chambers and dish the crown if you can't achieve enough volume at the head. Run deck to .040". Run your theoretical DCR on the safe upper side, and use the W7DTC plugs, properly gapped. Those CSP runner diameters are larger than your 1.7 ports. Filling them in and matching them would improve cylinder filling. Lastly, if your engine is just ballpark tuned, I'm sure you'll find more using a wideband.
We didn't think there was enough meat in the pistons and head to gain it all and would have been left with neither here nor there deck height which could have been worse. The deck height I have gives the burn more of a chance?
Yes those spur of the moment rods, I could have been nearer £2k. Not bad starting with an empty engine bay and a pair of carbs. We didn't really know how successful it would be and were ready to rebuild immediately if necessary with a bit more cam and CR but we both wanted to try this and as it turns out it's just what I wanted so it never happened. It would have been annoying to say the least if we'd changed things and got better numbers, but less driveability. This thing will cruise at 25mph in 4th without complaint, not that I'd do that to it, I want it to last. The most surprising thing for me is how smoothly it ticks over at as low as 500rpm (when it's cold). I thought those pistons would slap about a bit at tickover but they don't.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:55 am    Post subject: Re: Type-4 2413 using 104's for a bay camper Reply with quote

Yep they are torque crazy and with a bus it is the way to go, ha.

My my bug is a 2.0 using 1.7 heads, not as much torque but in a light bug you really feel it. In a bug you get constant torque from zero to top speed. Great feeling on long trips, no need to hit the gas before you get to a steep incline hoping your momentum will get you to the top.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:55 am    Post subject: Re: Type-4 2413 using 104's for a bay camper Reply with quote

In my opinion the 1.7 is the stronger head.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Type-4 2413 using 104's for a bay camper Reply with quote

78ccs (8.1:1) is a lot to carve out/dish, but definitely acheivable. Mirror the dish similar to the reworked chamber.

The closer you get that crown to the deck, the better mixture turbulence you'll have for combustion. Your bore is so large, it is more prone to detonation than a smaller one. The goal is to reduce flame travel as much as possible. This will allow you to pull some timing, and reduce the negative forces acting against the piston as it approaches TDC.

That is, if you ever do another one😊
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Type-4 2413 using 104's for a bay camper Reply with quote

The tulip shaped valve seat does not do much good at low rpm low valve lift compared to a regular seat. The relatively large displacement helps a little though.
Personally I was never a fan of 103/104 mm cylinders unless they were bored out Deutz units. And even then I would not use them in a bus engine with stock cooling. The head to cylinder sealing simply does not hold up over time. you being in not so hot GB may be the ticket that helps the engine stay tight for a while. Lets see if youre just as happy in a seasons time.

One thing you could do to really help the cylinderhead temps on the engine, with out straying much from the "stock parts desire" was to gut the stock muffler. Even a factory or a Leistritz muffler will creat a lot of back pressure on such large displacement. you will have to be a little creative with sound reduction, but there are ways to do that. The internet is your friend.

If you do that, both torque and hp will increase and your cylinder head temps will decrease. You might even experience a slight increase in fuel efficiency.

T
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:00 am    Post subject: Re: Type-4 2413 using 104's for a bay camper Reply with quote

Thanks very much for all your input guys. Smile

I was aware of the squish, flame travel, exhaust situation. We built like it is not out of ignorance but a wish to experiment, go against the grain just for the sake of it and to build a cheap large capacity engine..

It was me who turned up with a 2l, a1.7, 104's and the rods and said "build me a torquey engine with this pile of mostly junk please and I'll be fitting heat exchangers to it. To his credit he didn't laugh and as the days went by he got his teeth right into it. Fun for him, fun for me. Smile

Alstrup - if it ran any cooler I'd be looking for ways to make it run hotter, 375°f up a long (miles) drag at 70mph is pretty good? On the flat at that speed it's more like 325 and at 50mph lower still. After all the initial oil changes I looked to change it after 5,000 miles but it was still clear and thick, like new oil. After 8-9,000 miles it was still like new but I changed it anyway. I have the crank breather plumbed to atmosphere through the tin. I can't detect any chuffing on the back of my hand, not the slightest breeze, it's like it's blocked but I know it isn't.
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