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Type 4 Syndrome Fix?
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VWTortuga336
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:36 am    Post subject: Type 4 Syndrome Fix? Reply with quote

So I recently split the case on my 2.0L and saw that I had what you might consider an extreme case of Type 4 syndrome. I've been doing a lot of research and thinking about this problem and will be implementing a 'fix' on my case shortly. I know this might not work worth a damn, but I figure it's worth a shot. Here's my train of thought:

1. The boss that the bolt threads into that holds the oil pickup is obviously a weak point of the Type 4 engine - i.e. not very strong at all to begin with new from the factory

2. The same bolt is not supported by the other case half, as the hole in the case is much larger in diameter than the bolt

Now here's what I'm up against. I have been able to find on of the broken pieces of the boss (shown in the pic).

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Here's my (possible) solution:

1. Drill the boss about 1/4" deeper, to gain some extra support

2. Reattach the piece of broken boss with JB Weld, aluminum epoxy, etc?

3. Insert a piece of all-thread into the boss

4. Fill in around all-thread with JB Weld (etc.) - essentially creating a stud where the threads were

5. Fill in mating hole in other side of the case with JB Weld & drill hole just slightly larger than stud for additional support

6. Use nut on all-thread when re-assembling case


I'm going to be completing this work in the coming weeks and I'll let everyone know how it's coming along, but I just wanted to get some input as well. Am I completely crazy???
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a thread. ..maybe on STF about running a, bolt all the way through.

I vote no on the JB weld because sooner or later it will, come loose...oil...heat, cycling ...vibration.

I am not sure how much deeper you can go....but if you can get a hole In the 8-10mm range you can thread in a coarse outer thread/8mm 1.25 inner thread EZ lock insert with locktite and peen the install slots. ...and it will never come out.
Ray
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VWTortuga336
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
There is a thread. ..maybe on STF about running a, bolt all the way through.

I vote no on the JB weld because sooner or later it will, come loose...oil...heat, cycling ...vibration.

I am not sure how much deeper you can go....but if you can get a hole In the 8-10mm range you can thread in a coarse outer thread/8mm 1.25 inner thread EZ lock insert with locktite and peen the install slots. ...and it will never come out.
Ray



Thanks for the info. I hadn't thought about running a bolt all the way through. Would you foresee any drawbacks to that solution? You wouldn't happen to have a link to the STF thread you are talking about, would you?

What do you mean by "peen the install slots" on the EZ lock?
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The EZ lock style threaded inserts have a screwdriver slot in the top. Run the insert in flush and then with a sharp punch, peen the surrounding aluminum into the ends of the slot so it cannot rotate back out.

It was a while back on the STF....maybe two years.

Another thought I have been playing with is this:

Question: what purpose(s) does this thread and bolt serve?
A. It supports the oil pickup in two axes....it keeps it aligned so it cant, twist out of the rubber o-ring in the case and allow it to suck air instead of oil.....and....it keeps the threaded stud that holds the sump plate on at the correct height so that the sump plate and oil strainer can tighten down. Thats all.

Question: So what can you do to make this threaded bore and long bolt unneeded?

1. Since you install the pick-up tube on assembly of the engine.....you COULD do anything you want as long.....as long as it results in the two points listed above.

2. So maybe weld 3 ribs onto the pick up bell on the bottom....long enough to keep it properly spaced above the sump plate.....

3. Bend an angle 0n the bottom of each rib to give it a tab that sits dlat on the sump bottom and drill a 6mm bolt hole in each tab.

4. Install the tube in the case half with o-ring. Assemble the case without cylinders crank and cam.... tighten the sump plate to make sure the pickup tube is centered and while holding the three "feet/ribs" to the case sump floor, scribe the holes to mark the case.

4. Either install studs or bolts....so the pick up tube is supported solidly at the right height and in a solid manner.

This makes the threaded bore and the long bolt....not needed. It does not, do anything for rigidity of the case. Just put a plug in the outside jole. Ray
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VWTortuga336
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unfortunately, I don't have easy access to a welder, so I will try the EZ lock first, then go for the thru bolt. Anything in particular to consider when drilling the hole for the thru bolt, or just go to town?
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VWTortuga336 wrote:
Unfortunately, I don't have easy access to a welder, so I will try the EZ lock first, then go for the thru bolt. Anything in particular to consider when drilling the hole for the thru bolt, or just go to town?


Yes....from memory. ...the location on the other side of the case is not flat and parallel....and...as noted....this was a working discussion. I dont remember the outcome....It, could have been bad. Make sure you arecnot c passing through a piston rod path or an oil galley.

Also with the feet for the oil pick up bell....welding is ideal but they could easily be bolted to the bell with 6mm bolts Wink

I dont see any use for this bolt at all except to hold the pickup tube centered and at the correct height. Take that out of the picture and the problem is solved. Ray
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VWTortuga336
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep, just went to the garage and looked at where the hole would line up - wouldn't be pretty Shocked I think I found the thread you were talking about and it doesn't seem like they went thru with it either. I'll try the EZ lock first, then your bolt on feet method...fingers crossed.
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VWTortuga336
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OR, given the state of the crank, connecting rods, lifters, etc.....I may just end up buying a good, used short block Rolling Eyes

I'm still going to do all I can to fix it, NOW IT'S PERSONAL Twisted Evil
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Jim981
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have just found the exact same thing with my 2 litre from my 79 Bay. Now i at least have a name for my problem. Thanks
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VWTortuga336
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I figured I'd try the bolt through the case technique previously discussed. Since my case was basically toast anyway, I didn't think I had much to lose, so I whipped out the drill and away I went. I apologize in advance for the picture orientation, the gallery wasn't cooperating for some reason.

First, I just drilled a hole in the damaged boss, through to the other side. Here is where the hole ended up.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



I got an allen head bolt, since I found they have the smallest head diameter. Then I went in with a bigger drill bit (just larger than the bolt head) to "counterbore" the hole I just drilled.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This process would have gone much better if I had access to a drill press and/or mill, but I had to make due with what I had handy.


After getting this done, I started to clean the case, when I found this.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


So, sadly I won't be able to use this case after all. But, if I didn't have this huge crack in the side of it, I think I'd assemble it and give it a shot with my fix.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The, crack in the side would be an easy weld....and worth it to do if there were nothing else wrong with the case.
since mine is not, cracked but is stripped ....and normally I put a steel insert in with great sucess......I am instead going to install first bolt on feet for the oil pickup as I noted...and photo document the method....and then I am going to weld the feet on just because I can...and document that one too.

With the "foot" method....it will take away the entire bolt and makes torque on the strainer plate irrelevant. Ray
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VWTortuga336
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found someone that can weld the crack, but now I've also found this damage to the case, on two of the holes where the cylinders mount. Looks like one was attempted to be welded and fixed by a PO.

Would these areas affect the performance of the assembled engine?

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cranksnapper
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 Syndrome Fix? Reply with quote

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PostPosted: Today 12:58 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 case "syndrome" safety modification Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post


$32 REPAIR

BUY 10mm BRASS ROD
BUY 17/64" JOBBER DRILL (4.5" LONG)
LATHE DRILL WITH 17/64" ONE INCH DEEP
NOTCH 1/4" INTO SHANK
2-PART 'J-B WELD' DRILL SHANK INTO HOLE (SET 2 DAYS)
CLEAN BOSS-BREAK OF DEBRIS
PLACE CASE HALVES TOGETHER WITH DIAGONAL BOLTS
PLACE DRILL-IN-ROD THRU - TO BOLT HOLE BOSS
DRIVE ROD WITH 1/2" POWER DRILL SLOWLY THRU OTHER SIDE OF CASE
EVALUATE THREAD AREA POSSIBLE FOR TAPPING TO 8-1.25mm
(MINE WAS INADEQUATE)
CLEAN NEW HOLE AREA INSIDE & OUT WITH SCOTCH-BRITE & ACETONE
PLACE 'PUTTY ALUMINUM EXTERNAL OF HOLE - FLATTEN & DRILL 5/16"
USE 5/16"ALL-THREAD & FENDER WASHER TO FORM-FLATTEN FOR LATER
USE NY-LOCS TO TIGHEN ENOUGH SO PAD FORMS FOR TORQUING LATER
WAIT 2 DAYS
ASSEMBLE SIDE FOR CONTENTS (CYL's, CAM & LIFTER, ETC) 5/16" IN RING
APPLY PERIMETER SEAL, BUTTON UP, TORQUE-UP.........
OIL P/U TUBE WILL NEVER BE COMPROMISED AGAIN

-P- 425806520NINE SEATTLE
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