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Mr Margaret Scratcher Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2013 Posts: 246 Location: Cambridge UK
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Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 1:18 pm Post subject: Re: Forest Find 1961 Mouse Grey 11-Window Standard |
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Looking at this thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=669428&highlight=inner+headlight
It seems like remove the a post to get access, patch it, and then stitch the A post back together:
I was just worried that I'd end up welding the A post to the inner front panel as I weld it back together, rather than it just being spot/plugwelded as it should be, but I don't think it will really matter. |
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Longmont1302 Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2015 Posts: 324 Location: Longmont, CO
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Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:09 pm Post subject: Re: Forest Find 1961 Mouse Grey 11-Window Standard |
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I think you have the right idea. Thanks for reminding me of the Culito thread. He does fine work and documents it well, too. It's much appreciated.
Mr Margaret Scratcher wrote: |
I was just worried that I'd end up welding the A post to the inner front panel as I weld it back together, rather than it just being spot/plugwelded as it should be, but I don't think it will really matter. |
I don't know enough to know if that's a problem. I hope to learn more about what should be welded to what when I carefully pull aprt what's left of the old a-pillar and dogleg. |
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Mr Margaret Scratcher Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2013 Posts: 246 Location: Cambridge UK
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Posted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 7:37 am Post subject: Re: Forest Find 1961 Mouse Grey 11-Window Standard |
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Okay I think I've got it!
Cut out the rotten metal from the A post and inner front panel, patch the inner front panel, then when patching the A post, slide some copper in between that and the front panel so it doesn't get welded to it. Hey presto, both bits patched, but not accidentally welded together.
Again, whether or not it matters is another thing |
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Longmont1302 Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2015 Posts: 324 Location: Longmont, CO
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Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 5:41 am Post subject: Re: Forest Find 1961 Mouse Grey 11-Window Standard |
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While I wait for my welds to cool, I wanted to share some recently uncovered artifacts from our bus' past. This 1961 11-window spent all of its first life on and around a children's summer camp. A few weeks ago I was able to take some photos of pictures from camp yearbooks. The first one is from 1962:
The caption reads: "A comfortable bus is used on many camp trips." It looks like these guys (all past retirement age now) were enjoying the ride. Finding this photo gave me my first view of both the middle seat and the headliner. While my search wasn't 100% exhaustive, the next photo I found was 1991 when the bus was no longer being used to transport campers (but was still delighting them): Campers were periodically allowed to paint the bus with house paint. Their last coats (a Batman theme) can be seen below and at the beginning of this thread. My final discovery is from 1996: Its fun to see just a few of the smiles this bus provided for kids over its decades of service. More smiles are to come. |
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Longmont1302 Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2015 Posts: 324 Location: Longmont, CO
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Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:38 pm Post subject: Re: Forest Find 1961 Mouse Grey 11-Window Standard |
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My next step is to get access to the driver A pillar to do some rust repair. My plan is to replace the bottom inner and outer dogleg and the lower A pillar with KlassicFab parts. So I needed to get the remains of the old dogleg and the door hinge out of the way.
First I cut off the bottom of the dogleg: https://youtu.be/JiiQ8pxuXSo
Then I needed to get the door off. The screws were pretty rusty:
So I began spraying them with Aero Kroil penetrant every day, and whacking at them with this hand impact driver:
My technique was to put a P4 bit in the driver, set it in the screw, and twist it counter-clockwise as hard as I could while I hit it with a hammer. Even after double checking that I had the driver set to counter-clockwise, I didn't budge any of the 8 screws. The driver handle would turn, but the screws wouldn't.
So I read up on the door screw removal threads here, which included tips like welding bolts to the old screws, drilling the screws out, and using something called an "Old Man" connected to an air hammer/chisel. But before taking any of these steps, I asked my neighbor Bill if he'd bring his hand impact driver over so we could see if the problem might be with my driver or technique.
Neither of us had any success with any of the hand tools.
While I have a H.F. electric impact wrench, I figured that would just strip the old screws. However, Bill also brought an air impact wrench that differs from mine in that you can dial it down, so we tried that at its lowest setting:
In my case, this was the tool for the job. All 8 screws came out effortlessly. Maybe it helped that I had been spraying the Kroil and whacking on them all week, but they all just backed right out. I hope this helps someone else try that first! |
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EverettB Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000 Posts: 69829 Location: Phoenix Metro
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Longmont1302 Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2015 Posts: 324 Location: Longmont, CO
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Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:14 pm Post subject: Re: Forest Find 1961 Mouse Grey 11-Window Standard |
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I'm trying to remove what's left of the dogleg from this A pillar before deciding how best to proceed. I'm also trying to learn how to find and cut apart spot welds. In an effort to find where the spot welds were on the outside of this dog leg, I started using a wire brush by hand. When that didn't reveal any spots I used the angle grinder with a flap disc. Still no spots:
Any suggestions? Keep grinding for clues or ?
It's not clear to me what I can salvage below the hinge, and clearly I'm going to do some cutting, but I think it makes sense to try to pull the dogleg remains off first, if just for the practice. Any advice appreciated! |
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7549 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:00 pm Post subject: Re: Forest Find 1961 Mouse Grey 11-Window Standard |
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Especially because of all the house paint brushed on there..
I'd be getting things cleaned up first.
Paint remover, stripping wheels, etc.
I found that a 'twisted knot' wheel in an angle grinder most effective.
Be REAL careful using one of those, though..
Until you get all of that goo out of the way,
it's going to be real hard seeing spot-welds.
JMHO..
You go brother! _________________ Bus Motor Build
What’s That Noise?!? |
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7549 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:04 pm Post subject: Re: Forest Find 1961 Mouse Grey 11-Window Standard |
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oh, and BTW,
Anything sandpaper, IE a flap disc, is going to be good for doing a final dressing of welds, once they are as smooth as possible with a grinding wheel.
Abrasives remove metal.
You do not want to be removing metal right now,
As you'll make things thin,
And hide spot welds.
Use something flexible that will remove paint and filler, but leave as much metal as possible intact and in place.
Here's a twisted knot wheel,
Great way to remove filler and old paint layers,
But make extra sure it doesn't get away from you!
_________________ Bus Motor Build
What’s That Noise?!? |
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Busbodger Samba Member
Joined: July 08, 2012 Posts: 116 Location: Small Town, Tennessee
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Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:12 pm Post subject: Re: Forest Find 1961 Mouse Grey 11-Window Standard |
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Just read the whole thread. Great project and you look like you are having fun.
On the welding: look inside the door of your welder. Most have a sticker that shows all the basic settings based on the gas, welding wire size, and thickness of the material.
If you do a search on Google Images for "lincoln mig 180 welding chart" you see the chart. The chart for your welder will be different b/c your welder is different.
On my welder I use 75/25 argon/CO2 gas, and .023" welding wire. It takes fewer amps to melt the wire so less heat. My welder also specifies a 3/8" stick out - the distance from the tip of the gun to the end of the wire. If the stick out is longer, the temperature goes down. If the stick out is short of course temps go up. Wire speed also affects the heat a little so start with the basic chart settings and then adjust them to get the effect you want.
I tend to set the welder to the chart and then add or remove heat as I feel is necessary - maybe 1/2 a step up or down on the voltage knob.
If your welder does not have infinite adjustment on the heat, you might need to pick a temp based on the chart and then adjust the wire speed to get the effect you want. The wire speed is always infinitely adjustable.
Suggestion: YouTube channel "Welding Tips and Tricks". He does a good job of filming his welds so you can see too.
Also: https://www.mig-welding.co.uk/practical.htm
Lastly: adjustable helmet. I find that a #10 is too dark and a #9 is closer to the right shade unless I'm welding with big fluxcore wire which I seldom do. Fluxcore is great on thick materials but I seldom have good luck with it on thin materials. Adjustable shade autodark helmet helps. I have a good Miller. The cheaper helmets react slower and might long term be hard on your eyes.
Grinding your welds: someone up thread said it already: grind with the edge of a thin cutoff wheel. Removes excess weld without making alot of heat.
I weld in short bursts. Weld for 1-2 seconds and rest, move elsewhere for the next weld, repeat. Spread the heat out best you can. A chunk of copper can be a good backstop. The smaller welders may need a longer weld burst due to lower AMPS. Not sure.
Lastly: great picture of your two boys "driving" the bus. Made me laugh outloud! |
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Longmont1302 Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2015 Posts: 324 Location: Longmont, CO
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Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:38 pm Post subject: Re: Forest Find 1961 Mouse Grey 11-Window Standard |
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Clatter wrote: |
Abrasives remove metal.
You do not want to be removing metal right now,
As you'll make things thin,
And hide spot welds.
Use something flexible that will remove paint and filler, but leave as much metal as possible intact and in place.
Here's a twisted knot wheel,
Great way to remove filler and old paint layers,
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Hi Clatter,
Thanks for the encouragement and suggestion that I check out a twisted knot wheel, which I will do. I would have thought that bunches of steel wires spinning like a propeller would be even more abrasive (and remove more metal - or skin) than something like a flap disc, but I guess I'll find out when I try it.
That said, I'm still stuck on the current hurdle. I have removed paint, rust and all on the lip of this dogleg, and at no point did I see any hints of spot welds. How would you suggest I proceed in trying to remove the dogleg lip (see arrow below) from the face of the A pillar?
Thanks in advance for any suggestions. |
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WildIdea Samba Member
Joined: September 17, 2016 Posts: 928 Location: Black Hills, South Dakota
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Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:21 pm Post subject: Re: Forest Find 1961 Mouse Grey 11-Window Standard |
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I was in the same boat with similar rust spot once. I think if you just clamp on what’s left of the dogleg with a vice grip and start wiggling the spot welds will start to reveal themselves. Maybe a few slices on that dogleg remnant so your only wiggling a two three inch piece will prob pop right off. Or at least see where they are so you can tell where to thin the metal so will pop off wiggling it. Once I get down to where your at, I feel I wiggle spot welds apart more often than drill. Short patient back and forths really don’t damage the metal all that much.
I’ll add, when working a new area for the first time, an approach I’ve used to decipher what’s going on in places like this is look at images of replacement panels on suppliers websites for clues as to what I’m dealing with. I think the face of the bus wraps around the outer lip of the A Pilar (don’t hold me to that, never did a front skin swap) but the dogleg just has short flares that are welded to the flat side of the inner lower A Pilar.
Looking at your picture again, there might be a few inches of front nose skin that needs peeled back that your dogleg flare is tucked under. Not a legit steel guy here, so could easily have it wrong. _________________ 1977 Sage Green Westy
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=691987
1965 SWR Walk-Through Standard
1960 211 Panel American Camper Conversion |
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Longmont1302 Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2015 Posts: 324 Location: Longmont, CO
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Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2020 6:56 pm Post subject: Re: Forest Find 1961 Mouse Grey 11-Window Standard |
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Busbodger wrote: |
Just read the whole thread. Great project and you look like you are having fun. |
Thanks for reading and sharing your advice, Busbodger. Similar to you, I'm using 75/25 gas and .24 wire, and I do look at the chart, but I think I need to experiment more with the stick out distance. Thanks, too for the link to mig-welding.co.uk, which I hadn't yet discovered on my own.
Busbodger wrote: |
Grinding your welds: someone up thread said it already: grind with the edge of a thin cutoff wheel. Removes excess weld without making alot of heat. |
Thanks for reminding me on this, too. I tend to think one disc for grinding, and another for cutting, but I know more experienced folks get a lot of mileage with just the cutoff wheel. |
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Longmont1302 Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2015 Posts: 324 Location: Longmont, CO
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Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2020 8:12 pm Post subject: Re: Forest Find 1961 Mouse Grey 11-Window Standard |
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WildIdea wrote: |
I was in the same boat with similar rust spot once. I think if you just clamp on what’s left of the dogleg with a vice grip and start wiggling the spot welds will start to reveal themselves. Maybe a few slices on that dogleg remnant so your only wiggling a two three inch piece will prob pop right off. Or at least see where they are so you can tell where to thin the metal so will pop off wiggling it. Once I get down to where your at, I feel I wiggle spot welds apart more often than drill. Short patient back and forths really don’t damage the metal all that much. |
Thank for the tips, WildIdea. Sometimes I decide I should be using one tool (like the spot weld remover) and keep following that down a rabbit hole, when a different tool is a better solution. Following your advice, I did put a few cuts in the remaining dogleg, and then used a needle-nose vice grips to curl back some of the steel (and augmented this with a few whacks on a spot weld buster/chisel thing. I also peeled back a little of the nose skin as you suggested. I think this is progress:I'm unsure what my next steps should be. Here's the wide view: I suspect I need to just cut up the section shown in the first photo above to see what I see behind it. I have this piece to replace it:Here's what it looks like underneathI have piece for that, too, (as seen below)although I'm unsure if I can use that without cutting open the front of the bus, which I am hesitant to do.I also have this piece, although I don't really know where it goes!
My goal isn't a full-on restoration; I just want to drive this thing someday. I'd welcome any suggestions as to my next steps. Is there a killer A pillar repair thread I've yet to find? |
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Eric&Barb Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004 Posts: 24764 Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2020 8:50 pm Post subject: Re: Forest Find 1961 Mouse Grey 11-Window Standard |
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Longmont1302 wrote: |
[ I just want to drive this thing someday. I'd welcome any suggestions as to my next steps. Is there a killer A pillar repair thread I've yet to find? |
Have you gone thru the "Funky Truck" thread? Pretty sure he went thru all of that and has videos to boot. _________________ In Stereo, Where Available! |
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WildIdea Samba Member
Joined: September 17, 2016 Posts: 928 Location: Black Hills, South Dakota
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Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2020 10:23 pm Post subject: Re: Forest Find 1961 Mouse Grey 11-Window Standard |
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Yes! Right on. I have a bunch air chisels and spot weld drill heads but I actually use a thin metal chisel and light taps from a ball peen hammer and sometimes a pick to wiggle between metal to locate spot welds and just peel them apart with pliers. Klein tie wire pliers have a 45* wire tightening shelf on the head that works as a lever for prying against.
I had almost the same exact rust on my inner lower A but my nose was straight and clean so I just built up the inside and closed it off and went back to my dogleg from there. It was slow going the first time. I just patched the obvious and took my time till the fog lifted. Looks to me this side your on is basically the same patch as you did on the passenger side. Hopefully, you can save the hinge area. _________________ 1977 Sage Green Westy
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=691987
1965 SWR Walk-Through Standard
1960 211 Panel American Camper Conversion |
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Longmont1302 Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2015 Posts: 324 Location: Longmont, CO
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Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 10:11 am Post subject: Re: Forest Find 1961 Mouse Grey 11-Window Standard |
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Eric&Barb wrote: |
Have you gone thru the "Funky Truck" thread? Pretty sure he went thru all of that and has videos to boot. |
I've enjoyed looking at Kurt's fine work on many occasions, but have yet to read (and watch) through the entire thread in order. Thanks for the excellent suggestion: even if he doesn't specifically cover replacing an A pillar without removing the front skin (and he might), I'll undoubtedly learn a lot. |
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Longmont1302 Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2015 Posts: 324 Location: Longmont, CO
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Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 10:46 am Post subject: Re: Forest Find 1961 Mouse Grey 11-Window Standard |
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Thanks for the tips and encouragement. I'm afraid I ended up just rolling the steel back without discovering any spot welds here, but I get the idea and will keep working on it. I'll also look into the Klein tie wire pliers.
WildIdea wrote: |
I had almost the same exact rust on my inner lower A but my nose was straight and clean so I just built up the inside and closed it off and went back to my dogleg from there. It was slow going the first time. I just patched the obvious and took my time till the fog lifted. |
Have you posted any photos from that project? In a quick search of your awesome Sage Green Westy thread I did see some great shots of jack point work on your split, but didn't yet find anything on A pillar work.
WildIdea wrote: |
Looks to me this side your on is basically the same patch as you did on the passenger side. Hopefully, you can save the hinge area. |
The passenger side photos above are from Mr Margaret Scratcher - I would love to salvage the hinge area as well as he has. I'm particularly interested in learning what happened between his second and third photos above - how the angled ledge was created under the hinge to the klassicfab steel below. It seems like it would be a pretty small patch piece to successfully weld on both sides. |
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WildIdea Samba Member
Joined: September 17, 2016 Posts: 928 Location: Black Hills, South Dakota
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Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 11:32 am Post subject: Re: Forest Find 1961 Mouse Grey 11-Window Standard |
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Longmont1302 wrote: |
Thanks for the tips and encouragement. I'm afraid I ended up just rolling the steel back without discovering any spot welds here, but I get the idea and will keep working on it. I'll also look into the Klein tie wire pliers.
WildIdea wrote: |
I had almost the same exact rust on my inner lower A but my nose was straight and clean so I just built up the inside and closed it off and went back to my dogleg from there. It was slow going the first time. I just patched the obvious and took my time till the fog lifted. |
Have you posted any photos from that project? In a quick search of your awesome Sage Green Westy thread I did see some great shots of jack point work on your split, but didn't yet find anything on A pillar work.
WildIdea wrote: |
Looks to me this side your on is basically the same patch as you did on the passenger side. Hopefully, you can save the hinge area. |
The passenger side photos above are from Mr Margaret Scratcher - I would love to salvage the hinge area as well as he has. I'm particularly interested in learning what happened between his second and third photos above - how the angled ledge was created under the hinge to the klassicfab steel below. It seems like it would be a pretty small patch piece to successfully weld on both sides. |
Here is a few pics of my the inner A pilar patch. My buddy advised me not to cut the hinge area if I didn’t have to. I’m glad I didn’t cut it out. At first I wasn’t sure if I could get a decent weld where I did but it ended up being solid metal and just far enough to not effect the hinge.
When I first exposed the inner A polar and valance I felt I had a solid nose skin inside so I just replaced the inner half.
I think you have all the pieces you need are in hand, just need to figure out what you need and what you don’t. I bet I shaped my replacement piece for 3 deferent work sessions before I was satisfied it was ready to weld in.
_________________ 1977 Sage Green Westy
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=691987
1965 SWR Walk-Through Standard
1960 211 Panel American Camper Conversion
Last edited by WildIdea on Sun Jan 26, 2020 3:16 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Longmont1302 Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2015 Posts: 324 Location: Longmont, CO
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Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 2:58 pm Post subject: Re: Forest Find 1961 Mouse Grey 11-Window Standard |
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Thanks for the photos, WildIdea! |
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