Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts  See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
Starting issue?
Page: 1, 2  Next
Forum Index -> Thing/Type 181 Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
BlissBignall
Samba Member


Joined: June 20, 2016
Posts: 63
Location: San Angelo, TX
BlissBignall is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:40 am    Post subject: Starting issue? Reply with quote

Normally, when I turn the key, my 74 fires right up. The other day, I drove halfway across town to drop off my wife at the Toyota dealer (van needed some recall work done).

Of course, the Service Dept. guys all came out to look. When I went to leave, it took a couple tries, and a foot mashed on the gas pedal, to start the Thing. Somewhat embarrassing....

I've got a 1776 with dual carbs, and have been told it's possible for them to get hot enough to boil off gas if the car has ben driven for a few (maybe 5?) miles, making it hard to start. Does this sound right? I do notice if the car has been driven any real distance, it doesn't want to start again if I turn off the engine.

Once I got the car started, I was able to buzz on back to work with no problem. I had no problem starting the car later in the day.
_________________
1963 Beetle...My mom's car that got sold in 2012
1969 Beetle...That was fun!
1972 Beetle...Never ran right
1974 Thing....Daily driver on sunny days
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
KAmes
Samba Member


Joined: February 16, 2014
Posts: 428
Location: Illinois
KAmes is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Starting issue? Reply with quote

Yes, boiling off dual carbs definitely happens. My dual IDFs tend to do this, it took me some time and several experiments to nail down what was happening. You don't have to drive far, just far enough to get the engine up to temp. Five miles is plenty, then you have heat soak up through the manifolds boiling your ethanol gas after you shut it off. Result is just like you describe, requires the pedal mashing to start because the gas boils over and floods it. On mine it takes about fifteen minutes to get started. If I use ethanol free gas (harder to find), no problem. You'll find your carbs are almost cold to the touch while running, then after shutting off they will get hotter and hotter as the minutes go by. Check it out. I haven't found any solution yet, so I put up with it.

I wrote some about my experience with it in this thread, starting near the bottom of the page (page six, then more on page eight and nine)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...;start=100
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
mondshine
Samba Member


Joined: October 27, 2006
Posts: 1970
Location: World's Motor Capital
mondshine is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Starting issue? Reply with quote

It's a Zen thing, like a tree falling in a forest with nobody there to hear it.
The hard start was caused by those mechanics that were watching you; had you been alone, she'd have fired right up Wink.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Wayne S. Johnson Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 1102
Location: GILROY, CA
Wayne S. Johnson is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Starting issue? Reply with quote

Try leaving the engine door open to allow cool air to circulate around the carbs.
Heat rises and pulls cooler air from the bottom of the open door.
_________________
Additional products https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/search.php?username=Wayne+S.+Johnson
Additional products with Bluetooth http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=632417
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Wildthings
Samba Member


Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 38077

Wildthings is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Starting issue? Reply with quote

Find or make some thick phenol gaskets to go between the heads and the manifolds or between the manifolds and the carbs. I suspect but don't know for sure that later FI'd Beetle engines would have the thick gaskets to go between the heads and the manifolds. You will need longer fasteners if you go this route.

I have found that giving the throttle one good pump before starting a hot engine can sometimes work, even if the engine seems to be flooded. The good unmolested gas being held in the accelerator pump system seems to fire up better than the partially distilled ethanol laced fuel that is filling the manifolds.

Even premium pump gas helps during hot weather if you can not find ethanol free.

I added a thermostatically control computer fan to blow air across the center mount carb on my T-181, this too helps.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
BlissBignall
Samba Member


Joined: June 20, 2016
Posts: 63
Location: San Angelo, TX
BlissBignall is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:27 am    Post subject: Re: Starting issue? Reply with quote

Glad I'm not (totally) insane about what was going on. I'll try leaving the engine cover open after driving some distance and see how it works.
_________________
1963 Beetle...My mom's car that got sold in 2012
1969 Beetle...That was fun!
1972 Beetle...Never ran right
1974 Thing....Daily driver on sunny days
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Captain Spalding
Samba Member


Joined: February 19, 2005
Posts: 2459
Location: . . . in denial.
Captain Spalding is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Starting issue? Reply with quote

KAmes wrote:
Yes, boiling off dual carbs definitely happens . . . then you have heat soak up through the manifolds boiling your ethanol gas after you shut it off. . .

This is a revelation. I've experienced the issue but had no idea as to the cause. I've noticed that there's a Goldilocks time frame. If I shut off a hot engine and try to start it within a few minutes it fires right up. If I shut it off and let it sit for a long while, likewise it will fire right up. But if I let it sit for 10 to 15 minutes or so I'll have to work to get it started.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Wildthings
Samba Member


Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 38077

Wildthings is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Starting issue? Reply with quote

I installed this computer fan so that it blows on my centermount carb.
The fan and the hole it draws air through are hidden by the license plate.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I have this thermostatically controlled switch mounted on the fan shroud to turn the fan on and off.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Ron Domeck
Samba Member


Joined: August 05, 2007
Posts: 1410
Location: louisville Ky
Ron Domeck is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:48 am    Post subject: Re: Starting issue? Reply with quote

Don't the owners manual say on a hot engine to hold the gas pedal 3/4 down?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Wildthings
Samba Member


Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 38077

Wildthings is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:19 am    Post subject: Re: Starting issue? Reply with quote

Ron Domeck wrote:
Don't the owners manual say on a hot engine to hold the gas pedal 3/4 down?


Probably, but alcohol laced fuel wasn't a problem that was on the horizon back then. All of my older rigs tended to hot start on the first "bump over" 15 years back with no throttle but they all tend to take extra cranking today even with the throttle held open. Sometimes on a really hot summer's day it is even necessary to let the engine idle for a minute before trying to pull into traffic or it may sputter when you hit the gas.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
sam_w
Samba Member


Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 1404
Location: Cupertino, CA
sam_w is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Starting issue? Reply with quote

I've had the same problem with my 2054 that has dual Weber 40's
The only solution is to keep idling, or wait a while.
_________________
63 singlecab
73 thingster
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
sam_w
Samba Member


Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 1404
Location: Cupertino, CA
sam_w is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Starting issue? Reply with quote

I've had the same problem with my 2054 that has dual Weber 40's
The only solution is to keep idling, or wait a while.
_________________
63 singlecab
73 thingster
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
doublecanister
Samba Member


Joined: September 23, 2008
Posts: 1057
Location: Richmond, Va
doublecanister is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Starting issue? Reply with quote

Mine does it too, did it with 2 different carbs.

I "think" my heat risers are way hotter than they should be thus causing the gas boil / hard start / smoke screen.

I've read that those riser pipes shouldn't get "finger print removing" hot but hot enough to warm the carb.

Mine will remove your fingerprints. Thank goodness I had some else say
what's those pipes there? SIIZZLE and a few MF's so I learned from another not to touch those when hot! Shocked

I've looked around but not finding much on the different opening sized washers for those heat riser pipes, PROBABLY could make some, but not gone there yet.

That fan idea that Wildthings did was neat, although I'm not a fan of cutting anything, I happened upon a boat bildge fan for the engine bay for my redneck AC (cooler of ice) thing that didn't really work but that bildge pump fan may do exactly what he's doing there with some flex hose and a few screw's.
Got it at wal mart I believe. link to pic below.

https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/888a6c9f-f5ae-47a...nBg=FFFFFF

Is it possible to get heat riser metal gaskets with smaller holes or make some?
Rob and Dave's VW page discussed this.

http://www.vw-resource.com/heat_risers.html

T
_________________
****************************************
73'- Thing
66' -Mustang GT- Fastback
51'- Ford F1 pickup Flathead V8
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Wildthings
Samba Member


Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 38077

Wildthings is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Starting issue? Reply with quote

They used to have gaskets with smaller holes, but I have not seen one in years. Which exhaust are you running? The Thing heat riser pipe is larger in diameter than a Beetle pipe and if you use a Beetle style exhaust you will get too much flow through the heat riser pipe.

Even when working correctly they do get very hot, hot enough to take the paint of the one end.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
sam_w
Samba Member


Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 1404
Location: Cupertino, CA
sam_w is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Starting issue? Reply with quote

One thing you should do to your heat riser pipe, is to make sure that is is open. I have taken a piece of speedo cable on a drill and worked it through. Nearly 50 year old parts do have a build up of crud. Yes it does get hot and one end will have charred paint.

BTW I have tried the old wives trick of clothes pins on the fuel line and it doesn't really seem to work apart from wishful thinking.
_________________
63 singlecab
73 thingster
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Al Capulco Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: October 31, 2005
Posts: 339
Location: Northridge, CA.
Al Capulco is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Starting issue? Reply with quote

The gasket with the smaller opening is still available. They are also available in the muffler gasket kit, if you get the right one. I may have some if someone needs one. The preheat piping is directional on the factory mufflers, I think that is why the small gasket was used.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
74 Thing
Samba Member


Joined: September 02, 2004
Posts: 3910

74 Thing is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:46 am    Post subject: Re: Starting issue? Reply with quote

A lot has to do with crappy ethanol blended gas.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Wildthings
Samba Member


Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 38077

Wildthings is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:16 am    Post subject: Re: Starting issue? Reply with quote

Another thing that Bay Window owners have done is to install a fuel bleed off system so that the fuel lines do not maintain pressure after shutdown so hot fuel from the lines isn't forced into the carbs to replace the fuel in the carbs as it boils off. Do a search of "Busdaddy" posts to see what he built.

You want to:

-Limit the amount of heat reaching the carb(s) by restricting the exhaust gas flow through the heat risers (centermount) or adding insulating gaskets if you have duals.

-Cool the manifolds and carbs aftershutdown

-Bleed off fuel pressure between the fuel pump and the carb(s).

-Run ethanol free gas
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
kenj06
Samba Member


Joined: November 28, 2011
Posts: 75
Location: Ohio
kenj06 is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:50 am    Post subject: Re: Starting issue? Reply with quote

Has anyone tried these insulators to resolve the issue?
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1689187
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
doublecanister
Samba Member


Joined: September 23, 2008
Posts: 1057
Location: Richmond, Va
doublecanister is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:05 am    Post subject: Re: Starting issue? Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
They used to have gaskets with smaller holes, but I have not seen one in years. Which exhaust are you running? The Thing heat riser pipe is larger in diameter than a Beetle pipe and if you use a Beetle style exhaust you will get too much flow through the heat riser pipe.

Even when working correctly they do get very hot, hot enough to take the paint of the one end.


Hey Wildthings, I believe it's the stock exhaust for the 73' minus the drivers side pipe for the egr/filter. When I got the THING that filter was rusted out and no hookup method to the exhaust that was on the THING.

I know the post about the phenolic spacers, they do work but I'm not sure how much drop in carb temp would occur. I've used them on other vehicles but the carb still got warm (may not "as" warm" as without).
Warm being a relative term, last time I played with the IR temp gun, most parts were in the 100degree range and up. [i'd need to do this again and take some temp readings and record them]

I really wanted to try the heat riser restrictor's with smaller holes but I'd probably have to fabricate them.
it's one of those jobs I just haven't got too, yet, in fact I've not removed the exhaust on this THING yet, if that ever happens this is first on my list.

As far as it being related to ethanol, that's entirely possible, I can't find non ethanol 93 octane only 87 oct and i'd have to drive too far to be worth it.

In my specific case, If I can keep the driving speeds under 50mph, I usually don't have the hot restart problem, but If I take it on the hiway 60-65 and stop and restart, def so.
I've planned one of my weekend drives to incorporate a earlier exit and 45mph drive to cool the engine down, that usually helps a bunch on a shutdown restart situation.

T
_________________
****************************************
73'- Thing
66' -Mustang GT- Fastback
51'- Ford F1 pickup Flathead V8
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Thing/Type 181 All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page: 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2018, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB