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'70 Riviera: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures
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busdaddy
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:29 pm    Post subject: Re: '70 Riviera: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures Reply with quote

All passenger buses (even Kombi's) as well as Westfalias came with them, maybe Riviera yanked them out to fit the curtain?
Crack your head on the door track a few times and you'll know just why VW put it there.

Can you put spacers under the curtain rod mounts?
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:44 pm    Post subject: Re: '70 Riviera: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures Reply with quote

busdaddy wrote:
All passenger buses (even Kombi's) as well as Westfalias came with them, maybe Riviera yanked them out to fit the curtain?
Crack your head on the door track a few times and you'll know just why VW put it there.

Can you put spacers under the curtain rod mounts?


Ouch! Yeah, I can see that hitting one's head there would be bad. At present, we have a spacer between the screw and the curtain rod. The mounting point is just a hole drilled into the metal that would be covered by the beading. Nothing fancy. Perhaps the spacer could go between the rod and the seal?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:00 pm    Post subject: Re: '70 Riviera: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures Reply with quote

You may have to notch the seal there so the spacer is against solid steel, otherwise it may squirm around or loosen. Westfalia used a slightly longer rod with a 90 degree bend on the end and attached to the door post metal. Or shorten the seal, that area where the rod attaches isn't a place where you'll be whacking your head anyways.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 6:00 pm    Post subject: Re: '70 Riviera: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures Reply with quote

busdaddy wrote:
You may have to notch the seal there so the spacer is against solid steel, otherwise it may squirm around or loosen. Westfalia used a slightly longer rod with a 90 degree bend on the end and attached to the door post metal. Or shorten the seal, that area where the rod attaches isn't a place where you'll be whacking your head anyways.


Shortening the seal makes sense. The cabinet/blind spot gets in the way of the full length at the other end anyway. We can shorten it on both ends.

Small victories.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 5:00 pm    Post subject: Re: '70 Riviera: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures Reply with quote

We had the great pleasure of spending time on Monday with Robbie and our friend Sarah (co-founder of the BK Squareback club, also sometimes called (by us) the Brooklyn VW owners club and perhaps more aptly known as the Brooklyn TOOB club). We had pulled out our wiper assembly the Friday before and thought we'd have it back in over the weekend but the weekend got away from us.

We knew they were coming Monday afternoon so we figured we'd do it Monday morning before they came by. It turned into an ordeal. No need to describe everything because it's on Robbie's thread as a question. Here's 3/4 of us (and 3/4 of the members of named clubs above).

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Ever since getting the wiper assembly back in, we've had electrical issues. So many hands behind the dash, so many knockings around of the wiper assembly, and the removal/install of the vents hasn't been good...Through that experience we found that our fuse panel is incorrectly wired. Fuse 5 should be the wiper motor but it's fuse 8 on ours. Who knows what else is off Sad.

Anyway, after the wiper ordeal, when we turned the headlights on, the brake warning light and high beam indicator came on dimly. Flick the brights to "on" and the brights indicator went out (headlights brightened though) and the brake warning light went brighter. Found a dual ground had come off. Put it back on and all is well with that.

However, now we have now turn signals. If we pull the emergency flasher switch, the turn signals flash. Connections behind the gas gauge are all good. Bentley says to test the flasher switch but I can't find it up behind the dash. The book says it's the largest relay under the dash but that doesn't matter if you can't see it! I'm getting an ab workout and a crick in my neck trying to find new corners of the "underworld" to see!!

So WTF? If the emergency flashers work, why not the turn signals? There are no blown fuses and no wires look to be disconnected.

Where's the flasher relay? Or is that okay if the emergency flashers work?
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 5:23 pm    Post subject: Re: '70 Riviera: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures Reply with quote

Digging the white clogs J. Dansko? Very Happy

Robbie has no idea what a Toob is. Does he?
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 5:25 pm    Post subject: Re: '70 Riviera: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures Reply with quote

neena wrote:
Where's the flasher relay? Or is that okay if the emergency flashers work?

Same relay, and usually if it works for one it's OK. The emerg and signal circuits are supplied by 2 different wires that both go to the hazard switch, one has battery power and one keyed power, I suspect you have dislodged the #15 wire or the fuse is NFG. Look up the owners manual and see what else the signal fuse runs, like fuel gauge or horn, do they work?
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:27 am    Post subject: Re: '70 Riviera: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures Reply with quote

neena wrote:
We had the great pleasure of spending time on Monday with Robbie and our friend Sarah (co-founder of the BK Squareback club, also sometimes called (by us) the Brooklyn VW owners club and perhaps more aptly known as the Brooklyn TOOB club). We had pulled out our wiper assembly the Friday before and thought we'd have it back in over the weekend but the weekend got away from us.

We knew they were coming Monday afternoon so we figured we'd do it Monday morning before they came by. It turned into an ordeal. No need to describe everything because it's on Robbie's thread as a question. Here's 3/4 of us (and 3/4 of the members of named clubs above).

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Ever since getting the wiper assembly back in, we've had electrical issues. So many hands behind the dash, so many knockings around of the wiper assembly, and the removal/install of the vents hasn't been good...Through that experience we found that our fuse panel is incorrectly wired. Fuse 5 should be the wiper motor but it's fuse 8 on ours. Who knows what else is off Sad.

Anyway, after the wiper ordeal, when we turned the headlights on, the brake warning light and high beam indicator came on dimly. Flick the brights to "on" and the brights indicator went out (headlights brightened though) and the brake warning light went brighter. Found a dual ground had come off. Put it back on and all is well with that.

However, now we have now turn signals. If we pull the emergency flasher switch, the turn signals flash. Connections behind the gas gauge are all good. Bentley says to test the flasher switch but I can't find it up behind the dash. The book says it's the largest relay under the dash but that doesn't matter if you can't see it! I'm getting an ab workout and a crick in my neck trying to find new corners of the "underworld" to see!!

So WTF? If the emergency flashers work, why not the turn signals? There are no blown fuses and no wires look to be disconnected.

Where's the flasher relay? Or is that okay if the emergency flashers work?



STOP! HALT! ALTO! Laughing

You likely forgot that the repair manuals are way wrong on fusebox layout for 1970. Use the owner's manual which shows you this:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Wiring diagram for your other issues:

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/wiring/baybus_70a.jpg

E3 is your flasher switch, E2 is your signal switch. Busdaddy is right- you have an open between the 2.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:27 am    Post subject: Re: '70 Riviera: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures Reply with quote

busdaddy wrote:
neena wrote:
Where's the flasher relay? Or is that okay if the emergency flashers work?

Same relay, and usually if it works for one it's OK. The emerg and signal circuits are supplied by 2 different wires that both go to the hazard switch, one has battery power and one keyed power, I suspect you have dislodged the #15 wire or the fuse is NFG. Look up the owners manual and see what else the signal fuse runs, like fuel gauge or horn, do they work?


I contorted myself into all kinds of shapes, got a good ab workout while holding my head up in the tangle of wires, repeatedly got my hair pulled by the turn signal lever...and couldn't find anything amiss! We could not find a single loose wire anywhere, including at the hazard switch. We ran through every electrical component and every one of them works except the turn signals!!!!

Can anything go wrong in the signal housing on the steering column?

Just reviewed the fuse diagram in the owner's manual Tram posted. Here's another bit of info from when we discovered the problem: we have a two-wire ground connection that grounds the brake warning light and the fuel gauge. When that popped off the other day, the fuel gauge read full and the brake warning light, which we believed to not be in working order, illuminated for the first time ever. What does that tell us?
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:45 am    Post subject: Re: '70 Riviera: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures Reply with quote

neena wrote:
busdaddy wrote:
neena wrote:
Where's the flasher relay? Or is that okay if the emergency flashers work?

Same relay, and usually if it works for one it's OK. The emerg and signal circuits are supplied by 2 different wires that both go to the hazard switch, one has battery power and one keyed power, I suspect you have dislodged the #15 wire or the fuse is NFG. Look up the owners manual and see what else the signal fuse runs, like fuel gauge or horn, do they work?


I contorted myself into all kinds of shapes, got a good ab workout while holding my head up in the tangle of wires, repeatedly got my hair pulled by the turn signal lever...and couldn't find anything amiss! We could not find a single loose wire anywhere, including at the hazard switch. We ran through every electrical component and every one of them works except the turn signals!!!!

Can anything go wrong in the signal housing on the steering column?

Just reviewed the fuse diagram in the owner's manual Tram posted. Here's another bit of info from when we discovered the problem: we have a two-wire ground connection that grounds the brake warning light and the fuel gauge. When that popped off the other day, the fuel gauge read full and the brake warning light, which we believed to not be in working order, illuminated for the first time ever. What does that tell us?


Signals- Wire off at the fuseblock? During our Summer of Hell with this Bus I had a hell of a time getting them alive too, if I recall. It wound up being a wire off. I just don't amember which one. Embarassed

On the fuel gauge/ brake warning light issue things were trying to find an alternate ground with that wire off. On the B warning light, if I recall, the way to test it is by pushing on the "B" light lens. It should be spring loaded for testing purposes.

Again, from the owner's manual:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/jan70bus/70ownmanpage23.jpg

"To check the brake warning light depress it after switching the ignition on. If the lamp does not light up, the bulb must be replaced".

That said... I've seen these lights fail to test but otherwise function OK, and we know your bulb is good, so draw your own conclusions. Wink

What wound up being the issue with the wipers? I remember they turned into brain damaging squeakers on the way home.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:10 pm    Post subject: Re: '70 Riviera: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures Reply with quote

Tram wrote:
Signals- Wire off at the fuseblock? During our Summer of Hell with this Bus I had a hell of a time getting them alive too, if I recall. It wound up being a wire off. I just don't amember which one. Embarassed


There's no wire floating around on above the fuse box. I guess we can pull the fuseblock and see for sure but pressing/moving the wires at fuse 9 didn't get the turn signals back on. This is an annoying one! Can't drive without turn signals!!! Also, still can't see or find the flasher relay to see what's up there.

Tram wrote:
On the fuel gauge/ brake warning light issue things were trying to find an alternate ground with that wire off. On the B warning light, if I recall, the way to test it is by pushing on the "B" light lens. It should be spring loaded for testing purposes.

Again, from the owner's manual:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/jan70bus/70ownmanpage23.jpg

"To check the brake warning light depress it after switching the ignition on. If the lamp does not light up, the bulb must be replaced".

That said... I've seen these lights fail to test but otherwise function OK, and we know your bulb is good, so draw your own conclusions. Wink


I've never seen the bulb come on when pressing the button. It's only when the ground is disconnected that it lights up and it lights up even brighter when the headlights come on. If that makes sense.......

Tram wrote:
What wound up being the issue with the wipers? I remember they turned into brain damaging squeakers on the way home.


We isolated the majority of noise to the driver's side wiper shaft so we pulled the assembly to lubricate it throughout. Pulling it out was the easy part. Getting it back in not so much. The wipers wiped down onto the body instead of up onto the window. Robbie helped us figure out the orientation of the drive arm was wrong. 180* out and a spline or two off. He probably saved us 2 weeks of dithering around with the wipers!!
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:34 pm    Post subject: Re: '70 Riviera: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures Reply with quote

D/A/N wrote:
Tram wrote:
Signals- Wire off at the fuseblock? During our Summer of Hell with this Bus I had a hell of a time getting them alive too, if I recall. It wound up being a wire off. I just don't amember which one. Embarassed


There's no wire floating around on above the fuse box. I guess we can pull the fuseblock and see for sure but pressing/moving the wires at fuse 9 didn't get the turn signals back on. This is an annoying one! Can't drive without turn signals!!! Also, still can't see or find the flasher relay to see what's up there.

Tram wrote:
On the fuel gauge/ brake warning light issue things were trying to find an alternate ground with that wire off. On the B warning light, if I recall, the way to test it is by pushing on the "B" light lens. It should be spring loaded for testing purposes.

Again, from the owner's manual:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/jan70bus/70ownmanpage23.jpg

"To check the brake warning light depress it after switching the ignition on. If the lamp does not light up, the bulb must be replaced".

That said... I've seen these lights fail to test but otherwise function OK, and we know your bulb is good, so draw your own conclusions. Wink


I've never seen the bulb come on when pressing the button. It's only when the ground is disconnected that it lights up and it lights up even brighter when the headlights come on. If that makes sense.......

Tram wrote:
What wound up being the issue with the wipers? I remember they turned into brain damaging squeakers on the way home.


We isolated the majority of noise to the driver's side wiper shaft so we pulled the assembly to lubricate it throughout. Pulling it out was the easy part. Getting it back in not so much. The wipers wiped down onto the body instead of up onto the window. Robbie helped us figure out the orientation of the drive arm was wrong. 180* out and a spline or two off. He probably saved us 2 weeks of dithering around with the wipers!!


What- you no wanna keep your nose clean? Laughing

IIRC the flasher relay plugs into the fuseblock. It'll be the one that says "WARN- BLINKGEBER"- what the fuck am I telling you this for- you speak German! d'oh!

Found an easier to follow wiring diagram.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/wiring/baybus_70_wiring.jpg

I remember now- there was an issue at T3 where the blue wire from 49 on the flasher relay meets the green/ black/ white wire from the emergency flasher switch and connects to the green/ black/ white wire going to terminal 54 of the flasher switch last year. See it?

Can't drive without turn signals!!!

WTF? In BROOKLYN? I thought that was mandatory. Youtes Brooklynites are a buncha panty wastes these days. Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:02 pm    Post subject: Re: '70 Riviera: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures Reply with quote

On a 70 the flasher may be plugged into the bottom of the fuse box, or it could be a separate round edged aluminum box clipped to the top of the steering column brace, or it could even be a black plastic box, 70's are fun!
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:38 pm    Post subject: Re: '70 Riviera: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures Reply with quote

busdaddy wrote:
On a 70 the flasher may be plugged into the bottom of the fuse box, or it could be a separate round edged aluminum box clipped to the top of the steering column brace, or it could even be a black plastic box, 70's are fun!


Just our luck! So that’s what we’ll try again to find.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:27 am    Post subject: Re: '70 Riviera: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures Reply with quote

Regarding the wiper assembly: Most of us have learned these things the hard way. Even at my advanced age of maybe especially because of it, I mark things for alignment or timing before I remove them and now with the advent of the cell phone camera, I take lots of pictures from different angles before disassembly. I work on all kinds of mechanical and electrical/electronic stuff including my bus and slowing down to document a few things saves boatloads of time in the long run.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:23 am    Post subject: Re: '70 Riviera: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures Reply with quote

Sounds like a fun weekend! Woulda loved to have stopped by but then again I was busy spooning new tires onto the moto and truing wheels. Fun times.

With regard to the turn signals, if the hazard flashers work, then the flasher relay is fine. Both the turn signals and the hazard flashers use the same flasher relay.

As busdaddy pointed out, the hazard flashers are powered by a terminal 30 feed (battery hot). The turn signals are powered by a separate terminal 15 feed (so that they only work when the ignition is on). \

Check for 12v at terminal 15 on the hazard switch with ignition on. If good, then check for 12v at terminal + on the hazard switch with ignition on. That should be a white wire which passes 12v to the hazard flasher.

If everything is good so far, at this point the flasher relay is powered up and awaiting you to cut the turn signal bulbs into the circuit. And then now troubleshooting moves to the turn signal switch itself and/or the wiring thereto, especially, as Tram mentioned, that T3 connector where the blue wire from flasher 49a and the black/green/white wire from hazard switch meet.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:27 am    Post subject: Re: '70 Riviera: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures Reply with quote

neena wrote:

we have a two-wire ground connection that grounds the brake warning light and the fuel gauge. When that popped off the other day, the fuel gauge read full and the brake warning light, which we believed to not be in working order, illuminated for the first time ever. What does that tell us?


That's the kind of thing that happens when you lose a ground connection. Whatever device normally used that ground connection attempts to find a ground path through other devices, in this case your brake warning light bulb and fuel gauge.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:33 pm    Post subject: Re: '70 Riviera: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures Reply with quote

sjbartnik wrote:
Check for 12v at terminal 15 on the hazard switch with ignition on. If good, then check for 12v at terminal + on the hazard switch with ignition on. That should be a white wire which passes 12v to the hazard flasher.


All of this passed the test. There's 12V at 15 and at the white wire with the ignition on.

sjbartnik wrote:
If everything is good so far, at this point the flasher relay is powered up and awaiting you to cut the turn signal bulbs into the circuit. And then now troubleshooting moves to the turn signal switch itself and/or the wiring thereto, especially, as Tram mentioned, that T3 connector where the blue wire from flasher 49a and the black/green/white wire from hazard switch meet.


We thought working on wiring on a Type 3 was bad but this is worse. You have to lay on your back but reach even higher up and crane your neck to see everything. It'd be easier to look for wires and find the mysterious flasher relay if we could pop out the instrument panel but we have to read up on how to get off the early bay heat/fresh air lever ends. Looks like the pins we have to pop out are behind the display......a real octopus job?
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:35 pm    Post subject: Re: '70 Riviera: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures Reply with quote

TomWesty wrote:
Regarding the wiper assembly: Most of us have learned these things the hard way. Even at my advanced age of maybe especially because of it, I mark things for alignment or timing before I remove them and now with the advent of the cell phone camera, I take lots of pictures from different angles before disassembly. I work on all kinds of mechanical and electrical/electronic stuff including my bus and slowing down to document a few things saves boatloads of time in the long run.


We're usually pretty good about taking pictures and marking things but we messed this one up pretty good. I think we figured the Bentley guidance on how to align the arm to the wiper motor body would save us. And it did if you take away the fact that we were 180* out and a spline off!
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'69 Fuel Injected Squareback. "B" D-jet. 1600 with balanced rotating assembly and lightened flywheel. Full flow and external filter.

'70 Riviera. 1600 SP with 30 PICT 3 carburetor, 205M distributor, stock muffler

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:42 pm    Post subject: Re: '70 Riviera: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures Reply with quote

neena wrote:


All of this passed the test. There's 12V at 15 and at the white wire with the ignition on.


That means your flasher switch is good, at least as serving as a pass-thru for 12v when it's turned off.

Quote:

We thought working on wiring on a Type 3 was bad but this is worse. You have to lay on your back but reach even higher up and crane your neck to see everything. It'd be easier to look for wires and find the mysterious flasher relay if we could pop out the instrument panel but we have to read up on how to get off the early bay heat/fresh air lever ends. Looks like the pins we have to pop out are behind the display......a real octopus job?


I have fond memories of digging up around behind Bus dashboards Rolling Eyes
On later Buses the levers just pull off but the early ones had those plastic pins. More fun times.
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