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sjbartnik
Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2011
Posts: 5998
Location: Brooklyn
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 Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:45 pm Post subject: Re: '70 Riviera: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures |
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| neena wrote: |
We're usually pretty good about taking pictures and marking things but we messed this one up pretty good. I think we figured the Bentley guidance on how to align the arm to the wiper motor body would save us. And it did if you take away the fact that we were 180* out and a spline off! |
One time many years ago I was driving my '78 Bus on the interstate in a pouring rain and the wipers began to make a clunking noise. It got louder and louder until eventually a) the clunking stopped b) so did the wipers and c) a nut rolled out onto the floor from under the dash.
So on the side of the highway I had to get under there and discover that the nut that holds the crank onto the motor had come loose and the linkage crank had popped off the motor.
I got it put back together on the side of the road but I did the same thing as you - put the crank back on in the wrong orientation so the wipers would go down onto the body and then wipe half the windshield. Whoops. That's when I learned about properly indexing the crank to the motor. More fun times
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1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650 |
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sjbartnik
Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2011
Posts: 5998
Location: Brooklyn
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| Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:02 pm Post subject: Re: '70 Riviera: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures |
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| neena wrote: |
All of this passed the test. There's 12V at 15 and at the white wire with the ignition on.
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So for next steps.
Again, the flasher relay is good. You don't need to go digging for it.
What you do need to do is figure out why the turn signals aren't being cut into the circuit when you activate the turn signal switch. The electrical load from the bulbs is what causes the flasher relay to make the 12v pulsing output.
So if you're activating the turn signal switch but the bulbs are not lighting and the relay is not flashing, then the bulbs are not electrically connected into the circuit for some reason.
The turn signal circuit in your Bus is a little more complicated than the Type 3 because the turn signal bulbs are the same as the brake light bulbs, so there is a wiring mechanism to allow the turn signals to override the brake lights.
Since neither turn signal works I'm inclined to suspect something is up with that T3 connector that Tram pointed out and which is shown in the wiring diagram. You should be able to locate that connector by finding the wiring coming out of the steering column and locating the black/green/white wire which goes right into that T3. On the other side of that T3 the black/green/white wire and the blue wire to 49a on the flasher should be crimped together.
You know the 49a blue wire is connected to the flasher relay and you know the flasher relay is grounded because it works when you pull the flasher knob out.
So your problem is either in that T3 connector, the T4 connector after the turn signal switch, or the turn signal switch itself.
Here's the "turn signal highlight" version of the diagram
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1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650 |
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22728
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:07 pm Post subject: Re: '70 Riviera: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures |
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| neena wrote: |
| sjbartnik wrote: |
| Check for 12v at terminal 15 on the hazard switch with ignition on. If good, then check for 12v at terminal + on the hazard switch with ignition on. That should be a white wire which passes 12v to the hazard flasher. |
All of this passed the test. There's 12V at 15 and at the white wire with the ignition on.
| sjbartnik wrote: |
| If everything is good so far, at this point the flasher relay is powered up and awaiting you to cut the turn signal bulbs into the circuit. And then now troubleshooting moves to the turn signal switch itself and/or the wiring thereto, especially, as Tram mentioned, that T3 connector where the blue wire from flasher 49a and the black/green/white wire from hazard switch meet. |
We thought working on wiring on a Type 3 was bad but this is worse. You have to lay on your back but reach even higher up and crane your neck to see everything. It'd be easier to look for wires and find the mysterious flasher relay if we could pop out the instrument panel but we have to read up on how to get off the early bay heat/fresh air lever ends. Looks like the pins we have to pop out are behind the display......a real octopus job? |
Welcome to my world of 2016-17. 
Yes, the pins are up inside. They're especially fun when you have up close vision like mine... which is to say... none at all.
In addition, there are little tension leaf springs in there you've got to be careful not to lose. Read up here:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=708596
and also the link to another topic in the first post.
Lots of owners don't replace the pins. I will cut corners like a mutha on my own heaps but not on others. 
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| Bryan67 wrote: |
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busdaddy
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Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51156
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:22 pm Post subject: Re: '70 Riviera: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures |
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| Tram wrote: |
| In addition, there are little tension leaf springs in there you've got to be careful not to lose.. |
And make sure you disconnect the battery first, or one of those leaf springs will find that live terminal on the hazard switch when it leaps out. 
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D/A/N
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Tram
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Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:50 pm Post subject: Re: '70 Riviera: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures |
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| D/A/N wrote: |
| busdaddy wrote: |
| Tram wrote: |
| In addition, there are little tension leaf springs in there you've got to be careful not to lose.. |
And make sure you disconnect the battery first, or one of those leaf springs will find that live terminal on the hazard switch when it leaps out. |
Damn....I wonder what kind of tricks dealerships used. Was no one ever meant to work behind the dash upon threat of shorts and sparks? |
Not really- battery disconnect was pretty mandatory in there- too many Terminal 30 leads to the light switch, flasher switch, clock, radio... plus all the aux wiring from the other battery in yours.
This is where working on Mercedes is far better- all covered bakelite multi wire plugs instead of individual live terminals. No shorts for you!!! 
Get a good light and a mirror up under there after a handful of ibuprofen for your neck and see if you can spot that T3 connector with your young eyeballs before you tear it all down first.
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| Bryan67 wrote: |
| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
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D/A/N
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Abscate
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:50 am Post subject: Re: '70 Riviera: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures |
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I keep old pillows in the garage and prop my self up for under dash work. I can fall asleep under there if I’m not careful. A head mount light for illumination frees the hands.
Always disconnect negative first.
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TomWesty
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Joined: November 23, 2007
Posts: 3482
Location: Wyoming,USA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:28 am Post subject: Re: '70 Riviera: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures |
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| Abscate wrote: |
I keep old pillows in the garage and prop my self up for under dash work. I can fall asleep under there if I’m not careful. A head mount light for illumination frees the hands.
Always disconnect negative first. |
This. As an aside, I was working in a Post Office branch on some wiring and I was wearing a headlamp. One of the customers pulls a postal clerk aside and I hear him say “ Ma’am, there’ s a miner hiding under your counter.”
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Tram
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:32 am Post subject: Re: '70 Riviera: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures |
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| D/A/N wrote: |
| Tram wrote: |
Not really- battery disconnect was pretty mandatory in there- too many Terminal 30 leads to the light switch, flasher switch, clock, radio... plus all the aux wiring from the other battery in yours.
This is where working on Mercedes is far better- all covered bakelite multi wire plugs instead of individual live terminals. No shorts for you!!! |
But in dealership shops were techs just laying on their backs doing wiring or was it policy to pull the instrument cluster? Or use a lift to get the bus just high enough so you could peek under the dash or what? Just curious.... |
Like any other dealership, VW dealers were "flat rate" so you employed whatever tricks you could to do it in less than the flat rate time, although diagnostic time on electrical gremlins was straight time unless it was a warranty job- then you got ONE HOUR for diagnosis only, so everyone hated electrical 'WTF' warranty work with a passion.
Yes, anything up under the dash that is not readily accessible from underneath is a cluster fuck pull. When I was there was in the last few years of the Bus era, and most service customers were new car warranty, so I hardly ever saw anything older than '74-ish with the new easier slider controls. The older stuff was all "straight time" on electrical stuff.
So- your question of "was there a policy" is more complicated than it might seem. Plus, this was USA and not Germany so the shop foreman was more of an assistant/ troubleshooter rather than a tyrant micromanager.
The one policy, though, was disconnect battery power- everywhere- burning something with a short just meant you were careless and careless meant the door.
Personally I'd go up under the dash and "cheat" wherever I could but like with any other numbers game you had to know when to fold or you could lose your ass on a job... wasting 45 minutes "almost" getting it from up underneath and THEN having to pull the cluster was stupid.
I did do a lot of amazing things with 2 pair of long needlenose (battery disconnected!) and 30-40 year younger eyesight and skeletal system, though.
The real advantage you got doing this every day for years, however, was knowing where to go as the most likely cause for each issue. Look at the wiring diagram for the 2500th time and zero in on the common denominators and go right to it. That's the real difference between pros (who pay attention) and even the best weekend techs... it just comes down to soul crushing rote repetition. That's the same way they trained us as apprentices, BTW... do a job and do it over and over and over and over until it just comes naturally without losing track or fucking it up.
So there's the long, complicated Ray Greenwood/ Bay Bus forum answer to your simple question. (Hi Ray! )
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| Bryan67 wrote: |
| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
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D/A/N
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Joined: August 13, 2010
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:46 pm Post subject: Re: '70 Riviera: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures |
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Finally found the damned T3 connector hovering above the steering column bracket. Nothing was disconnected. Jessica pressed the wires a little more firmly onto their connectors and now we have turn signals again!
So now to move on to some preventive fall/winter maintenance:
--Put thinner oil in
--paint/"rustproof" the OG BN4 tailpipe
--adjust the fresh air flaps so they close fully and/or replace the air box gaskets
--touch up undercoating with Waxoyl or Fluid Film
--address the shitty leaky connection at the heater box/exhaust. Towards the end of last winter, the heat reeked of exhaust and we have backfires. Not sure if we want to do a "seasonal" repair or install our NOS exhaust and NOS right heater box right before salt season starts or wait until spring.
--Not really a winter item but we want to fix the fold-out bed. We have a Westy bed combined with a Riviera "armrest". The sizing of everything creates a 1.5" gap between the bed cushion and the cushion over the motor which leads to a morning backache if you sleep in the wrong spot. We need to move the whole assembly back the 1.5". Looks like we'll need to either rebuild or saw down the "armrest". I'm sure this is what we'll be posting about next!!
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'70 Riviera. 1904cc w/ 40mm Dellortos, 019 distributor, Steve Tims “super stock” 37x32 heads, Web Cam 218, Vintage Speed SS143 Super Speed exhaust, 1 1/2” heater boxes |
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22728
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:00 pm Post subject: Re: '70 Riviera: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures |
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Why not just make a backrest that's 1.5" taller?
If you're up for it I'd do that exhaust now, just in case there's an internal leak in that box. If you could get a NOS left box too, do it all at once and be done. Get more of that ceramic coating paint and paint it all really good before install.
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| Bryan67 wrote: |
| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
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D/A/N
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Tram
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Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22728
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:06 pm Post subject: Re: '70 Riviera: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures |
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| D/A/N wrote: |
| Tram wrote: |
| Why not just make a backrest that's 1.5" taller? |
I think moving the whole thing would be easier and would look better.
| Tram wrote: |
| If you could get a NOS left box too, do it all at once and be done. |
There aren't any for sale that I can see. The only ads for NOS bus boxes only has passenger side. Anyone have a NOS driver's side heater box they want to get rid of? |
Hmmm. Actually doing the right side and the muffler now wouldn't be a tragedy as it's not a huge deal to do the left box by itself later. Hopefully the left box isn't the real source of the fumes.
Bus Despot sells Dansk that they claim are the "heavier duty" boxes for $129.95 if you want to give that a shot.
https://www.busdepot.com/043255105f
You're right- moving the bed shouldn't be too bad (but it's THIS BUS... ).
The armrest fastens to the wall and not the bed if I'm recalling correctly.
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| Bryan67 wrote: |
| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
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D/A/N
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busdaddy
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Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:37 pm Post subject: Re: '70 Riviera: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures |
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| D/A/N wrote: |
| Should we remove this crap or what? |
Hell yeah!, that stuff is nothing but trouble.
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Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22728
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:43 pm Post subject: Re: '70 Riviera: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures |
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| busdaddy wrote: |
| D/A/N wrote: |
| Should we remove this crap or what? |
Hell yeah!, that stuff is nothing but trouble. |
Inside it didn't seem to be a huge issue. It's been there a long time! But it's your Bus so do what you feel is best. I'm just saying it's no disaster. Now outside, exposed to water would be different for sure.
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| Bryan67 wrote: |
| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
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D/A/N
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busdaddy
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Joined: February 12, 2004
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Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:35 pm Post subject: Re: '70 Riviera: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures |
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| D/A/N wrote: |
| busdaddy wrote: |
| D/A/N wrote: |
| Should we remove this crap or what? |
Hell yeah!, that stuff is nothing but trouble. |
What to replace it with? Sound deadening sheets or closed cell foam? |
Something that allows a little air to circulate between it and the outside metal, condensation builds up in that spray foam and bad things happen.
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Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
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neena
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