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'70 Riviera: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures
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D/A/N
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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 11:21 am    Post subject: Re: '70 Riviera: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures Reply with quote

Ok, i'll try putting it like this:

If jalousie windows won't fully close after all new seals and a new regulator/winder mechanism, what's left to look at? We brushed the rust off the rivets and lubed the moving parts but maybe that wasn't enough. Should we also replace the rivets on the arms and all that? Just want to be sure before just jumping into work that might not be necessary.

I should also add that they closed like this before the rebuild so I assume the cause is something we didn't address in rebuilding.
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busdaddy
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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 12:29 pm    Post subject: Re: '70 Riviera: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures Reply with quote

D/A/N wrote:
what's left to look at?.

Maybe the linkage that runs up inside the frame? Without being there it's hard to say what's bugging it, do all 3 panes close equally?, or does one close tight and two flop?
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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 4:56 pm    Post subject: Re: '70 Riviera: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures Reply with quote

busdaddy wrote:
D/A/N wrote:
what's left to look at?.

Maybe the linkage that runs up inside the frame? Without being there it's hard to say what's bugging it, do all 3 panes close equally?, or does one close tight and two flop?


They don't close equally and they all flop. The middle flops most, then the bottom, then the top. But here's the new thing.....after testing the window out a bunch in the last few days, the regulator has developed a lot of slop. So much that it now takes about 2 rotations out from closed for the panes to start opening. Maybe the regulator was already crappy and that's why it wouldn't close all the way? I guess I'm saying that I'll try yet another regulator and see if that makes a difference before going further. The fact that opening and closing the panes a few times over a few days caused all this slop doesn't bode well.

FWIW, I bought both the left and right regulator on Amazon.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00FPKYIK8/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I pulled this one (left) off and compared it to the right one. Night and day difference in how they turn. The left one is already trashed. At least I can still return it Rolling Eyes
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busdaddy
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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 5:10 pm    Post subject: Re: '70 Riviera: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures Reply with quote

D/A/N wrote:
busdaddy wrote:
D/A/N wrote:
what's left to look at?.

Maybe the linkage that runs up inside the frame? Without being there it's hard to say what's bugging it, do all 3 panes close equally?, or does one close tight and two flop?


They don't close equally and they all flop. The middle flops most, then the bottom, then the top. But here's the new thing.....after testing the window out a bunch in the last few days, the regulator has developed a lot of slop. So much that it now takes about 2 rotations out from closed for the panes to start opening. Maybe the regulator was already crappy and that's why it wouldn't close all the way? I guess I'm saying that I'll try yet another regulator and see if that makes a difference before going further. The fact that opening and closing the panes a few times over a few days caused all this slop doesn't bode well.

FWIW, I bought both the left and right regulator on Amazon.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00FPKYIK8/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I pulled this one (left) off and compared it to the right one. Night and day difference in how they turn. The left one is already trashed. At least I can still return it Rolling Eyes

Those windows were far from the best quality even when new (one of the few American made parts on a Westfalia to meet some DOT regulation), if every rivet is sloppy it all adds up, and a crappy repro regulator likely doesn't help. They all require a turn or two to overcome the slop, even on near new OG buses, if your PO drove around with the windows 1/2 open all the time the wear will be many times worse.
But usually there's enough surplus travel in the mechanism to wind them down to close fully, I wonder if something is bent too?
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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 5:51 pm    Post subject: Re: '70 Riviera: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures Reply with quote

busdaddy wrote:
Those windows were far from the best quality even when new (one of the few American made parts on a Westfalia to meet some DOT regulation), if every rivet is sloppy it all adds up, and a crappy repro regulator likely doesn't help. They all require a turn or two to overcome the slop, even on near new OG buses, if your PO drove around with the windows 1/2 open all the time the wear will be many times worse.
But usually there's enough surplus travel in the mechanism to wind them down to close fully, I wonder if something is bent too?


I didn't realize the windows were American made. I thought it was odd that the glass was PPG which I always thought of as an American brand but you've explained it. Now as to why it'd be required that jalousie windows had to be American made but all other glass didn't have to be......

Could be something is bent. They don't close any better with the new regulator than they did with the old whereas everything on the other window snugs down pretty well even with the original regulator.

I bought the shitty one from Amazon on a gamble. Even if Hehr is still available (which it kind of seems to be), I figured that they'd be as OEM as Meyle of Germany-China, SKG and FAG of Germany-India and countless other parts. The Amazon one looks exactly like what Bus Depot is selling for $10 more and the place which sells Hehr stuff has a website straight out of 1997 so I passed. Perhaps I shouldn't have!
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'70 Riviera. 1904cc w/ 40mm Dellortos, 019 distributor, Steve Tims “super stock” 37x32 heads, Web Cam 218, Vintage Speed SS143 Super Speed exhaust, 1 1/2” heater boxes
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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 7:26 pm    Post subject: Re: '70 Riviera: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures Reply with quote

Disconnect the window operator and see if the window will operate.
This will tell you if it the crank or the window mechanism.
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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 7:59 pm    Post subject: Re: '70 Riviera: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures Reply with quote

D/A/N wrote:
busdaddy wrote:
Those windows were far from the best quality even when new (one of the few American made parts on a Westfalia to meet some DOT regulation), if every rivet is sloppy it all adds up, and a crappy repro regulator likely doesn't help. They all require a turn or two to overcome the slop, even on near new OG buses, if your PO drove around with the windows 1/2 open all the time the wear will be many times worse.
But usually there's enough surplus travel in the mechanism to wind them down to close fully, I wonder if something is bent too?


I didn't realize the windows were American made. I thought it was odd that the glass was PPG which I always thought of as an American brand but you've explained it. Now as to why it'd be required that jalousie windows had to be American made but all other glass didn't have to be......

Could be something is bent. They don't close any better with the new regulator than they did with the old whereas everything on the other window snugs down pretty well even with the original regulator.

I bought the shitty one from Amazon on a gamble. Even if Hehr is still available (which it kind of seems to be), I figured that they'd be as OEM as Meyle of Germany-China, SKG and FAG of Germany-India and countless other parts. The Amazon one looks exactly like what Bus Depot is selling for $10 more and the place which sells Hehr stuff has a website straight out of 1997 so I passed. Perhaps I shouldn't have!


If you just want another complete window email me. The ones I have both close all the way.
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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 8:00 pm    Post subject: Re: '70 Riviera: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures Reply with quote

D/A/N wrote:
Tram wrote:

If you haven't yet gotten this to improve try loosening the nuts at both ends of the U junction slightly and see if that improves things.

The way these doors "glide" themselves open has to do with the momentum of how easily the "U" swings to the full open stop... it's THAT easy swinging motion with the sudden stop that then makes it glide down the track easily on its own.

"It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing". Seriously.

If the loosened nuts help but they are now so loose they may work themselves off, replace them with nylocs.

If this doesn't help there's a possibility that the plating is interfering with the swing action. Remove the U with the door open at the rear and supported and grease the thing up. If that doesn't help file the plating down in the area that goes up into the other 2 parts of the hinge.

Sometimes shitty painted parts ARE better... Smile


There's only a nut on one end of the U. The other side is the more complicated one with the pin and clips and whatnot else. I lubed the hell out of that but never thought to loosen the nut. I'll add that to the list for summer road trip prep.

In other news, we had a few days of well-deserved camping this weekend. The full length Bus Depot awning is a win even if the poles are clunky. The front door screens are pretty good but need a bit of help to make a good seal between the magnets. We may sew in a few more in between the ones provided. Still, a pleasant scene:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Our bigger summer road trip prep item is removing our leaky sliding windows and replacing them with jalousies. We've got one window all ready......cleaned up, new seals, all moving parts lubricated, and even a new regulator mechanism. Problem is, the individual panes still won't close tightly. When reading about that issue on the forum, the old threads pointed to a new regulator mechanism but it didn't work for us. Even with an old mechanism and before rebuild, the window on the other side closes more tightly. It seems like one of ours will rattle but would be fine with another 1/4 turn of the regulator which it just doesn't have. Any ideas for a fix before we install? We can take a video if needed.


Anybody hurt in that wreck?? Very Happy
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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 5:31 am    Post subject: Re: '70 Riviera: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures Reply with quote

Tram wrote:
If you just want another complete window email me. The ones I have both close all the way.


Tempting, but I've got enough hours in disassembly, cleaning, dry and wet sanding, stripping, polishing, reassembling, replacing the crank mechanism, testing, and trouble shooting that I feel too far in to cut the knot. I'll try out tcash's suggestion tonight and will keep you posted.

Early in the process, I came across a post from busdaddy that said something to the effect of rebuilding the jalousies is so tedious that he'd just as soon find a pair that work outright. I see what he means.

If only the brand new ones in the classifieds weren't $1200!
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'70 Riviera. 1904cc w/ 40mm Dellortos, 019 distributor, Steve Tims “super stock” 37x32 heads, Web Cam 218, Vintage Speed SS143 Super Speed exhaust, 1 1/2” heater boxes
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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 6:18 am    Post subject: Re: '70 Riviera: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures Reply with quote

This may be a long shot - but it happened to me.

The long cross bar that the operator twists to open the window can be put in wrong.. in a couple of ways. You might try to flip it over and see if that helps the closing situation. You may even have the wrong cross bar.

I had two jalousie windows that I was restoring. One had the crank on the left and one had it on the right. I swapped the cross bars to put the better cross bar on the better overall window. This was a mistake. The window would not close all the way - leaving the individual windows maybe 80% closed. Turning it over did not help. I had to swap back the original cross bar to make it work correctly.

Probably not your situation, but maybe worth some thought.
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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 8:34 am    Post subject: Re: '70 Riviera: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures Reply with quote

andrewtf wrote:
This may be a long shot - but it happened to me.

The long cross bar that the operator twists to open the window can be put in wrong.. in a couple of ways. You might try to flip it over and see if that helps the closing situation. You may even have the wrong cross bar.

I had two jalousie windows that I was restoring. One had the crank on the left and one had it on the right. I swapped the cross bars to put the better cross bar on the better overall window. This was a mistake. The window would not close all the way - leaving the individual windows maybe 80% closed. Turning it over did not help. I had to swap back the original cross bar to make it work correctly.

Probably not your situation, but maybe worth some thought.


It's definitely worth a shot. I started out with everything marked and labeled directionally but my system fell apart as I had to redo things. I disassembled one window at a time so I didn't mix up the bars between windows but it might be worthwhile to try flipping it.
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'70 Riviera. 1904cc w/ 40mm Dellortos, 019 distributor, Steve Tims “super stock” 37x32 heads, Web Cam 218, Vintage Speed SS143 Super Speed exhaust, 1 1/2” heater boxes
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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 9:28 am    Post subject: Re: '70 Riviera: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures Reply with quote

A little info
Jalousie (louvered) Windows
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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 11:13 am    Post subject: Re: '70 Riviera: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures Reply with quote

D/A/N wrote:
Tram wrote:
If you just want another complete window email me. The ones I have both close all the way.


Tempting, but I've got enough hours in disassembly, cleaning, dry and wet sanding, stripping, polishing, reassembling, replacing the crank mechanism, testing, and trouble shooting that I feel too far in to cut the knot. I'll try out tcash's suggestion tonight and will keep you posted.

Early in the process, I came across a post from busdaddy that said something to the effect of rebuilding the jalousies is so tedious that he'd just as soon find a pair that work outright. I see what he means.

If only the brand new ones in the classifieds weren't $1200!


Yeah, these stupid windows are deceptively tedious. Was just suggesting this because summer vacation is coming like a freight train. You could transfer your resealed glass pieces after just polishing up the main frame/ mechanism.

Not saying you want to give up on the one you have- you can still work on figuring it out for your own knowledge... but why postpone summer... again? Wink
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:10 am    Post subject: Re: '70 Riviera: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures Reply with quote

Tram wrote:
Yeah, these stupid windows are deceptively tedious. Was just suggesting this because summer vacation is coming like a freight train. You could transfer your resealed glass pieces after just polishing up the main frame/ mechanism.


True, they are deceptively tedious. The second window has been disassembled and half cleaned up for almost a month now and I can't bring myself to keep scrubbing, sanding, and polishing. Have to though.

Tram wrote:
Not saying you want to give up on the one you have- you can still work on figuring it out for your own knowledge... but why postpone summer... again? Wink


How about this.......We tried reversing the rod but it seems to only want to go one way on account of the slots in the arms at each end. Turned around, we could only get one side to connect correctly. The new regulator comes tomorrow. If that doesn't turn out to be the magic bullet, we'll take you up on your offer.
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'70 Riviera. 1904cc w/ 40mm Dellortos, 019 distributor, Steve Tims “super stock” 37x32 heads, Web Cam 218, Vintage Speed SS143 Super Speed exhaust, 1 1/2” heater boxes
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:39 pm    Post subject: Re: '70 Riviera: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures Reply with quote

Ok......new regulator from Amazon and now the top pane closes tightly but the other two are loose. So a new regulator changed something, but not everything. Here's a not-so-great video that shows the tightness of the panes from bottom to top. The bottom and middle are pretty floppy, but the top is tight. WTF????


Link

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:12 pm    Post subject: Re: '70 Riviera: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures Reply with quote

D/A/N wrote:
Ok......new regulator from Amazon and now the top pane closes tightly but the other two are loose. So a new regulator changed something, but not everything. Here's a not-so-great video that shows the tightness of the panes from bottom to top. The bottom and middle are pretty floppy, but the top is tight. WTF????


Link


Well, if the top one closes tight now but not the lower ones, I'd think it would have to be slop in the linkage rivets or maybe there is some slight adjustment/ slop where the lower two panes fasten to the holders on the sides... e.g., possibly loosen the four retainer screws and tip the pane further closed?
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:35 am    Post subject: Re: '70 Riviera: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures Reply with quote

Tram wrote:
Well, if the top one closes tight now but not the lower ones, I'd think it would have to be slop in the linkage rivets or maybe there is some slight adjustment/ slop where the lower two panes fasten to the holders on the sides... e.g., possibly loosen the four retainer screws and tip the pane further closed?


Repositioning the panes on the holders didn't do anything. I'm not even sure it's actually possible to do so as there's really only a millimeter or two of movement but we tried.

All that's left is the rivets. If I push up on the linkage arm, I can get the windows to close snugly, so there's probably too much slop in the rivets which contributes to sagging in the linkage parts. It seems like one more turn on the operator mechanism would also work but there just isn't one.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:46 pm    Post subject: Re: '70 Riviera: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures Reply with quote

Because these stupid jalousies are the most annoying thing in the world, we decided to address some other issues/do some other work for a while.

1) We'd been having a popping out the exhaust when letting off the throttle and sometimes when shifting gears at high rpms. Went through the valves, dwell, timing, idle speed/mixture but no fix. Then we had a look at the throttle positioner (2 piece version). It turns out that it wasn't holding the throttle open at all when getting off the pedal. With a little bit of adjusting clockwise, no more popping and it hangs open about 4 seconds. Bentley says 3.5 seconds +/- 1 second. The only bad thing we found is that the locking screw is frozen. Couldn't move it to adjust but didn't need to. Couldn't lock it down but need to.

2) We're about to head off on a 7 week road trip. We also want to bring our bicycles and needed to repaint our rear bumper. We thought today might be a good day to install the hitch. It's one of these

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=458811

Even though the ad says that the hitch replaces the stock bumper brackets, we didn't register what that means. It turns out the with our fat ass Type 3 tail pipe and the combustion air intake for our BN4 that there's no way this thing will install on one side. Even if we moved the intake pipe, the part of the hitch the bumper is supposed to mount to wouldn't clear the tail pipe. Anyone want to buy a hitch???? Maybe it's better that the bumper wouldn't be mounted to the hitch anyway?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


At least we got the bumper painted

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


3) After sleeping up top a few times, I found that the plain wood was a little rough. We have a thick sleep pad for up there, but getting on and off onto the wood wasn't the most fun. Then I remembered the batting I used in making the cushions:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


And I had some leftover fabric from the bed and jump seat so I stapled that on. so much more comfortable and it flips over just fine even without a seam

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:36 pm    Post subject: Re: '70 Riviera: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures Reply with quote

Because these stupid jalousies are the most annoying thing in the world

Bwwwwaaaaaahahaha. If only! Have you already forgotten... well, everything else? Laughing



Couldn't lock it down but need to.

Drop of super glue work?

Your solution to the upper deck is absolutely, positively just perfect. Very Happy

As to a bike rack... what about a rear hatch mounted one? Fiammas work well and will hold 2 bikes- you can still access the engine without removing the whole thing as well:

http://www.busdepot.com/ka0026

Spendy, but hey.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:49 am    Post subject: Re: '70 Riviera: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures Reply with quote

Tram wrote:
Because these stupid jalousies are the most annoying thing in the world

Bwwwwaaaaaahahaha. If only! Have you already forgotten... well, everything else? Laughing


Don't remind me!

Tram wrote:
Drop of super glue work?


No, the lock screw is frozen where it is. We can't secure the adjusting screw which turns freely and easily.

Tram wrote:
Your solution to the upper deck is absolutely, positively just perfect. Very Happy


Thanks......this was a simple but satisfying fix. Took a grand total of maybe 30 minutes.

Tram wrote:
As to a bike rack... what about a rear hatch mounted one? Fiammas work well and will hold 2 bikes- you can still access the engine without removing the whole thing as well:

http://www.busdepot.com/ka0026

Spendy, but hey.


Really spendy when you add in the price of the hitch we bought but can't use!
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'69 Fuel Injected Squareback. "B" D-jet. 1600 with balanced rotating assembly and lightened flywheel. Full flow and external filter.

'70 Riviera. 1600 SP with 30 PICT 3 carburetor, 205M distributor, stock muffler

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