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The 1641 for my Detroit money pit
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Danwvw
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:53 pm    Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit Reply with quote

I would not even bother with that big carb and that old plenum manifold. It's just going to bog every time you step on the gas. The little 1641 just can't suck enough to make that thing work. The only single config other than the Solex Pict 34/3 that would work with it would be to use a separate runner single manifold for a IDF or DRLA or NDIX Zenith Carb. Keep the venturi's small. Also Small as you can find single manifold! Remember the plenum doubles the flow and cut's the velocity in half. On a small displacement 1641cc engine small single manifolds work way better than large ones!
Maybe cut this one and use stock VW dual port end castings and a Single Zenith with it. SP Intake Manifold Price: 20 + ship These Dual Zenith DP manifolds are the only ones on the Samba for a long time except for this setup. Either would be excellent for your engine.
Zenith's Come as VW carbs with crossover bases on them or Porsche carbs with no crossover bases which is what we want. Also on Single vs Dual carbs totally different jetting is needed starting with the emulsion tubes. Here is a good deal for some Dell 36's but they need Manifolds, Linkage and Air Cleaners. The Carbs: FS: Pair of Dellorto DRLA 36 carbs w/Air Filters Price: $280
I don't know, is it a plenum? IE.. Joined below the carb? Looks huge!
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Danwvw
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:09 pm    Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit Reply with quote

dennismcd707 wrote:


Now, any suggestions on how to hold the push rod tubes..... 'and' install the head at the same time? With only two hands? And not have the little air deflector pop out every two seconds because the cylinder studs are moving? This is only a mock up, but I can't see me doing this by myself. I need an extra pair of hands for the push rod tubes. Frustrating. Anybody have any tips?

.....and lastly, I was able to cancel my order for new cylinders. So that's a relief. I don't own more parts for a shelf in the basement. Laughing


I stretch them all just a little first not too much. They need to be all about the same length it's possible to get them to just rest in place ready for the head to be tightened. Do the deflector first if you have 10mm studs you need 10mm deflectors if you have 8mm studs use 8mm deflectors that is where they snap around the studs. They hold nicely and won't fall off it your getting them installed correctly.

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Don't forget these little tins: http://www.awesomepowdercoat.com/ has them:
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dennismcd707
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:08 am    Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit Reply with quote

Well, since I don't have four hands, I got my wife to hold and guide the push rod tubes while I dropped the cylinder head onto the studs. I couldn't do it by myself, the push rod tubes kept falling. So what does this mean? It means I'd prefer to seal the base of the jugs on a day that I have someone at home that can hold my push rod tubes whilst I install the cylinder head. As soon as I apply the ultra black gasket sealer, I want to be able to torque down the heads for good. So it looks like I'll be waiting until Saturday for the help I need to move forward. Here's a photo of the mock assembly, with tubes installed. The tubes, by the way, are brand new, and appear to be stretched out already. They also seem to be about the same length as one another.

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NoBudgetVWGarage
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:47 pm    Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit Reply with quote

Shocked

Your mock up is together already. Bolt it up. Dont need 4 hands for this.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:43 am    Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit Reply with quote

Dennis,
If you're installing ratio rockers. It will be a good idea to leave the push rod tubes off while you seal your cylinder bases.

Sealing the bases is not a race against time. You seal and install one cylinder at a time. Once you have the cylinders sealed. Install the head and torque to spec and leave it overnight to cure.
You can pull the head back off later. To install the cylinder deflector shields (tins) and push rod tubes after the rocker setup.

You need a visual guide to setup the push rods and rockers. If the tubes are in place. You'll have a difficult time during rocker setup. It can be done. It's just easier without the tubes in place.

Good Luck
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dennismcd707
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:14 am    Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit Reply with quote

I'm planning on stock 1.1 rockers, so do I still need a visual guide to set up the pushrods and rockers? Every book/manual shows push rod tubes getting installed prior to head assembly. I'm willing to try to make my job easier, but I'm not sure if you're talking about stock rockers or not.

Thanks for the advice on the cylinder sealing. I'm gonna try to seal 'em up and bolt 'em down on Saturday, with the hopes that the heads are on for good. No reasons to have to pull 'em off.
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dennismcd707
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:22 pm    Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit Reply with quote

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I was able to seal up my jugs today and the heads are on for good. (knock on wood Boo hoo! ) I needed my wifes help again. Put a dab of oil on the studs and torqued 'em down to 18 foot pounds, as per Wilson's book for 8mm cylinder studs. I ran into a slight problem applying the ultra black sealant because half the tube had completely dried up. I poked a hole in the bottom and it was good, but now I had to figure out a way to apply. It was messy, and I got it right in some spots, not so much in others.

Here are my choices for rocker arm assemblies. The new one is an Empi brand h.d. "stock" rocker arm kit (without directions, more or less) and the other is just a stock assembly. I'm leaning more towards the stock one. So here's where I'm going to start putting the first "used" parts on this engine. So far, everything has been brand spankin' new. I sort of washed/cleaned up the rockers, but thoroughly cleaned the used push rods I have. I blew 'em out good after washing them in solvent. I don't have a clue what I'm doing next with this rocker geometry. I guess I have to research and read up.... but that's next.

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NoBudgetVWGarage
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:40 pm    Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit Reply with quote

It's basically a stock engine.. I wouldn't worry too much about geometry.. that comes in when a longer stroke, rods etc.. is used.
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Danwvw
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:38 pm    Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit Reply with quote

Solid Rockers shafts are nice, I would prefer Scat or CB over Empi. Maybe run the Stock VW rockers with the Empi solid rocker shafts and get swivel ball adjusters. Scat are good so are the CB. Put about .060" of rocker shims under the rocker blocks and see if you can adjust the valves out far enough to set the tappets. Measure your sold shaft's and get the right Side Play Shims for them. It's important to set them as tight as you can get them for end play and a little off to the side where they meet the valve stem. It is usually necessary to pry things to the side a bit as you tighten the rocker shafts down on the head to make sure they are free to rock but all the spaces between the shims & blocks are pretty tight. .002" ok. Just use an angle grinder or Dremel tool and grind a little off the face of the threaded area on the top of the rocker if any need just a little more space there so it will adjust like the others.
Take some nice photos of your rockers from the side view at half valve lift and post.
Studs can be screwed in all the way and backed off just enough to not be tightened at the case end. Some kind of thread sealer should be used to stop oil leaks at the studs and inserts. RED is often used on the outside and Blue on the inside. I would probably use just Blue in both places.
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dennismcd707
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:08 pm    Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit Reply with quote

Well, after a little research, I'm gonna go with the new Empi solid rocker shaft and new rockers with swivel ball adjusters that I have. That means just the push rods will be the only used/old parts on this engine.....so far. I know it doesn't matter, but I keep thinking about it. (New parts doesn't mean no headaches either!)

I saw a video on youtube about how to shim your rocker assembly, plus I'll follow along as best I can to any technical procedural references, although all directions that I've found so far are kinda vague in my opinion. (probably because I don't remember ever doing this before, and my confidence level is kinda low at the moment when it comes to valve trains.) I have parts that came with it that I don't even know where they go! Embarassed
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Pruneman99
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:23 pm    Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit Reply with quote

I kinda hate to tell you this but the odds that the stock push rods will be the right length is pretty low. Especially if you going with ball adjusters and have to shim to get the geometry correct.

You will need to make or buy an adjustable push rod tool to find out the length you will need for you engine.
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dennismcd707
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:35 pm    Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit Reply with quote

........got one. I ordered it but haven't found the need yet. I'm surprised stock push rods won't work. Everything is stock. Another learning curve? Anyway, I'll open up my push rod measuring tool and investigate on how to use it. Obviously, I don't know anything really about the ball adjusters either. This alters the stock geometry? Enough to need altered push rod lengths? (I'm just making sure we're on the same page)
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:49 pm    Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit Reply with quote

Yes you are on the same page as Pruneman.

He has made a point, that your ball adjusters may throw off your rocker geometry.
Dig out your EMPI adjustable pushrod and check the geo before going any further.
Make a mistake here and, it may cost you a valve guide at best. Or a head at worst. Don't ask me how I know this. It cost me a bunch to get it right.

There are lots of threads on setting up rocker geo on the samba. Read up on it. It's important.
When you get stuck. Ask here. Someone will be willing to help.

Good Luck.
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dennismcd707
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:33 pm    Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit Reply with quote

Here's a shot of my rocker assembly on the heads without push rods. I just wanted to see them up there, and how well they fit. Does anybody know what exactly the black plastic discs are for that came with the empi solid shaft rocker assembly? Take a look at my photo. The kit contains 4 of them. Also, they give you 4 extra bolts for something.......??? Anybody?


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1971 Super Beetle, 1776, dual Weber's, roller crank, big valve modified racing heads, close ratio trans, lowered suspension, 4 wheel disc brakes, car has over 368,000 actual miles. (RIP 1970 Beetle/Baja, 1986 GTI, 1999 Jetta, 2002 Jetta)
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Pruneman99
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:48 pm    Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit Reply with quote

The pictures are a bit dark but I did notice something. It looks like the adjuster is bottomed out on the rocker arm. You need some thread in between.

Use the adjustable push rod to measure the length of push rods you need after setting the geometry. You might get lucky and be able to use stock... Sorry, what cam?

IDK about the disks? Maybe they go on the ends of the shafts? Are there 4 total? Or 4 per rocker shaft?
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:02 pm    Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit Reply with quote

You have allot of work to do to get those rockers ready for installation.
The "plastic" caps. Are likely aluminum. They should be the rocker end caps. Without those the exhaust rockers will fall off the rocker shaft. The extra bolts and washers are for final assembly. Once you get the rocker side play worked out. And the geo too.

In the pics you posted. You can see gaps between the rocker arms and the rocker blocks.
Ideally you want .005" clearance side play at the rockers.
Based on what I can see. Right now you have greater than the required .005" side clearance.
Those silver shims need to be measured and sorted according to thickness.
Then you can start working on the rocker side play.

I know this seems a bit daunting. When you look at that pile of parts.
But if you take your time and measure properly. You'll have a nice valve train.

We can't do all the thinking for you. We can only, guide you through the rocker setup.
You'll get there. It just takes time and a little learning.

Good Luck.
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Paul Jr
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:51 pm    Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit Reply with quote

Is it just the picture or are the rocker blocks on upside down?
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:58 pm    Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit Reply with quote

Paul Jr wrote:
Is it just the picture or are the rocker blocks on upside down?

You're correct. But the final assembly is not complete. Yet!
Dennis has a learning curve ahead of him.
So expect some questions on the rocker geo setup. This is not meant to be a slight at you Dennis.
I started a thread on rocker geo a couple of months ago. Because I had questions as well regarding rocker geo.

Rockers can be a bit hard to understand when efforting to get geo correct.

Good Luck.
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I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!

There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo!
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dennismcd707
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 9:20 am    Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit Reply with quote

Pruneman99 wrote:
The pictures are a bit dark but I did notice something. It looks like the adjuster is bottomed out on the rocker arm. You need some thread in between.

Use the adjustable push rod to measure the length of push rods you need after setting the geometry. You might get lucky and be able to use stock... Sorry, what cam?

IDK about the disks? Maybe they go on the ends of the shafts? Are there 4 total? Or 4 per rocker shaft?


The cam is an Eagle 2280 "Cheater cam" by CB, and there are four total black discs. I guess they go on the ends of the shaft.
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dennismcd707
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:27 pm    Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit Reply with quote

What about lash caps? I bought a set for another engine, but I could use them here instead. Do you guys have an opinion on me using lash caps? I was just trying to figure out how the whole rocker assembly works. I fumbled my way through installing it with the push rods in, then I fiddled with the adjusters for a while, and stared at the blocks and the mounting studs. I guess I have a little better understanding. Oh, and I took a couple more photos too. Now I'm reading up on rocker arm geometry and push rod length 101. By the way, I think my stock push rods will work. That's why I want to use the lash caps.

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1971 Super Beetle, 1776, dual Weber's, roller crank, big valve modified racing heads, close ratio trans, lowered suspension, 4 wheel disc brakes, car has over 368,000 actual miles. (RIP 1970 Beetle/Baja, 1986 GTI, 1999 Jetta, 2002 Jetta)
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