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The 1641 for my Detroit money pit
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dennismcd707
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:22 am    Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit Reply with quote

Well, I beat the breast plate tin with a hammer so it would fit, while making room for the 90 degree full flow fitting. I ground the fitting down a bit as well. (Next time I'll be much more careful of the grinding dust! Not very smart. Embarassed )

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Any help on clearancing the tin is warranted. It's kind of messy, but it looks like it will work okay. The tin also hits the new pulley now, so a little more smithing with the ball peen and I should be good. I had to take a break from the pounding and bending for a while. Now it's back to the flywheel mating task.

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Next, I reamed the new Empi flywheel with an 8mm reamer so the new dowels from my new Scat crankshaft would fit in their holes........and it worked! I've had the flywheel on and off (all the way) 3 times this morning, with it getting easier each time. Now I'm in the process of setting my crank end play thrust tolerance, but again, I had to take a break. I started a new shift at work and now I actually have to be there Mon - Fri, like everybody else. That means I have mornings to work on the engines and sandrail ....... and then off to work after lunch.

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Looks like the P & C's will be coming up next.
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dennismcd707
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 2:58 pm    Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit Reply with quote

Tin doesn't look very good, even with the nice paint job. I always look right at the damage from the hammer when I look at it. Oh well, I guess I'll live with it. It's not hitting the pulley anymore either.

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Next, I set the crank thrust end play. In doing so, I got to use some tools that I have that I haven't used in a very long time. Glad I didn't sell 'em.

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....next, my cast Mahle 87mm slip-in pistons all got weighed, and were all within one gram of each other.

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Then, in doing my mock up for checking deck height, I realized I couldn't get the pistons back into the cylinders........even with a ring compressor. They'd keep getting hung up on the first ring, so I decided to take the top 2 rings off of piston #1 and try it, and voila, it went in. Now I could check my deck height, but I still have the problem of inserting my pistons back into their cylinders after I wash 'em and I'm ready for final assembly.

I'm thinking that maybe I should buy a different type of ring compressor. That........ or give it some more time and just keep on trying with the one I've got. I'll at least try one more time. Maybe somebody will give me some advice. (the compressor squeezes the rings, but the first one still bulges a little, preventing the whole piston from going in. Brick wall )

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 3:21 pm    Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit Reply with quote

No need to install the rings for mock up. I just put them in without rings to check deck height. You can mock up ring gaps closer to final build.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 3:30 pm    Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit Reply with quote

Oh no, you're right, I can do the mock ups without the rings. That's not my problem. When I'm all done, and they're ready for final assy., that's when I still have my problem. I can't get the pistons back in the cyl's with the rings on.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 3:43 pm    Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit Reply with quote

I usually just use my fingers and install from the bottom. There is a chamfer on the inside bottom of the cylinder that will help them slide in. No chamfer on the top so they will hang up easily. There is a nifty cone type ring compressor that looks like it would work a treat. Mybe jacee?

That screw type you have there doesn't like me either. The simple band type would probably be better.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:29 pm    Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit Reply with quote

In a rail you don't need that tin, if you dont like how it looks, take it off 😉
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:13 pm    Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit Reply with quote

Did you set the ring gaps first? If they are too big (gaps too small) they won't fit the cylinders.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:45 am    Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit Reply with quote

Nope, I surely didn't check my end gaps on the rings. I was gonna check 'em, but I got stuck on this problem first.....but I'll do that right now. Thanks John. That's why I love theSamba. It comes to the rescue everytime I get stuck. (and I get stuck a lot)

As for the tin, I tried to search to find a listing of the tin that's absolutely gotta be on the engine, and all I found was: PUT ALL TIN ON, IT WAS DESIGNED TO BE THERE FOR A REASON! Well, since I have a sandrail, which means no enclosed engine compartment, I've always thought that I could probably ditch some of the tin. But what tin? What tin is absolutely vital to keeping the engine running as designed, that's always been my question, but I can't seem to get any answers other than: PUT IT ALL ON!

.....so, since I don't know much, I just follow directions. That means I've got the breast plate on underneath my crank pulley. If I don't really need that for anything, I'd prefer to get rid of it. Yes? Any other tin that's not needed on a sandrail? Very Happy .....after all, less is better! (but does that mean tin too?)
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 2:51 pm    Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit Reply with quote

.....I missed my chance to make noise in the basement today, so I wasn't able to check all of the piston ring end gaps. (My wife was using the basement office to study this afternoon, so I obliged her with some peace and quiet. #Sleep ) I did, however, check the two that I had taken off of the one piston, and they were fine. Alas, I was still stuck, because I still can't get 'em in, from the top or bottom. (and I didn't want to force 'em either)

So..... I ran out this morning to 2 hardware stores and 3 auto parts stores looking for a different type of piston ring compressor. Geez, that was fun. Laughing And what a waste of time. I didn't find what I needed, so I did the next logical thing. I ordered it online Popcorn and it will be at my house in 2 days.

I'm thinking about starting another thread/post, asking the question: Which engine tin isn't essential on a sand rail? ....... but I don't know which forum would get the most replies. Off-road VW's or Engines?
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 2:55 pm    Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit Reply with quote

Rear tin and pulley tin can be discarded. So can "firewall tin".

The lower tin is wise to keep, since it protects the push rod tubes from debris. But a lot of guys omit it, and run the Type 3 cool tin INSTEAD, leaving the bottom open. Often times they are using exhausts which don't have tabs for the sled tins anyways, though you can weld tabs to the J-tubes to keep the sleds, if the J-tubes are in the stock locations.

Most sandrail and baja engines are missing the rear deflectors, these do keep the heads cooler by keeping cooling air tight against the head for more distance.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 3:16 pm    Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit Reply with quote

Thanks for the reply on the tin. Now I know what 'COOL TIN' is. Yea, I'll leave the tin on around the heads. I knew that those were important. I have a skid plate to protect the engine and trans, so my thinking is....... if it's there for cooling purposes, it should probably stay. Added protection for the push rod tubes? They'll definitely stay! We'll see. I just didn't know what 'DEFINITELY HAD TO BE THERE'.

I forgot to also try your method of using my fingers to compress the rings instead of a tool. I'll give that a shot tomorrow, but I don't know. My fingers are pretty sensitive and soft. I might be doomed from the start. Boo hoo!
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:52 am    Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit Reply with quote

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A new piston ring compressor was all that was needed for me to continue on with the assembly, so I installed numbers 1 and 2. Without shims, my deck height on both was .056, which with my CC'd heads at 47cc and all the other factors, I've calculated my compression ratio to be 8.4:1. I asked somebody I trust if that was okay, and was assured it's fine.

I slapped the heads on just temporarily so I could tighten down the cylinders while the ultra black gasket sealer cures around the base of the cylinders. Tomorrow I'll install cylinders 3 and 4. It sure pays to have the right piston ring compressor. I didn't even have to throw it. (Not even once!) Embarassed

I also ordered new cylinder engine tin and baffles/deflectors. I just couldn't see putting anything old, bent, and rusty on the new engine. So.... in a couple of days, I'll have new tin delivered to my front door. Laughing
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:43 pm    Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit Reply with quote

On open engine bay cars (bugvy,rail,baja) I still like to run the sled tin along with industrial tins to fill the gap from heater box removal, as long as the exhaust will alow.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 9:13 am    Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit Reply with quote

Yea, I ordered some sled tin when I was shopping on Amazon. (my newest favorite hobby)

I now have a question about Type 1 thermostat mechanisms. Since I don't know what the thermostat does on an air cooled VW, I don't know whether or not I need one. Could somebody explain what it does, and do most engines on sand rails use them? If I need one, then I have to order one and wait until it arrives. Any help is appreciated. Cool
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:02 pm    Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit Reply with quote

Many people will argue and many will disagree. I personally feel the thermostat is part of the heater system and not part of the cooling system.

On a Dunebuggy or sandrail with no heater system and the engine is exposed the thermostat and flaps are not needed.

As I said many will disagree with me and convince you the Earth will stop rotating if you DO NOT run the thermostat and flaps.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:05 pm    Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit Reply with quote

The flaps also help divert air on the heads. I couldn't fit a cross bar on mine with a type 4 oil cooler, so I welded the flaps open and installed them. I'd say do that, better to have open flaps than no flaps. But I mean, the engine will still run without it. Just another option for you.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:23 pm    Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit Reply with quote

Well, I've decided not to run a thermostat. One less thing to break. Here's a video of my engine assembly process. I'm still learning the GoPro.


Link

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:49 am    Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit Reply with quote

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I've decided to stop adding things to the engine. In fact, I had to take off the flywheel and heads (they were only on temporarily anyways) just so I could lighten the load. I have to carry the engine up and out of my basement, probably by myself too, so there's no sense in making my job impossible. It's just light enough now that I can probably do it without pulling anything. Laughing


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And because it's almost time for the fan shroud, I decided to put it all together. My problems so far have been missing fasteners and hardware, and the lack of assembly directions. Luckily, I've got an old fan shroud with a generator attached to it, so I can see how that one went together. I'm not worried about the wiring, only the mechanical side of it.

Since the fan shroud is brand new, along with the alt. and alt conversion assembly pieces, I don't have the four 10mm bolts that hold the plate to the shroud. Next, the alt has a small nut and washer to supposedly attach to the fan itself, but we all know that the fan nut is huge, 36mm, so what are these for?

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I also have to figure out a way to torque the nut down to the fan. I'm by myself, so it makes it hard to hold down while wrenching. And for some reason (from numerous experiences, possibly) I have the feeling that once I get it all tightened up and figured out, I'm gonna learn that I have to turn everything 180 degrees or something, because the orientation isn't correct. We'll see, I reckon.

And lastly, I used ultra black silicone gasket maker at the base of all of my cylinders, to prevent future leaks. I used just the sealer without anything else, no shims either, and from this photo, it looks like I got just the right amount all the way around. I wanted to see just a 'skoshe' squirting out after tightening the jugs down, and here's proof. I really hope that I've been careful enough to prevent any oil leaks on this bad boy. We shall soon find out.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:57 am    Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit Reply with quote

Bad news .... (for me). I'm not happy with the way the engine is turning over. It's not the bearings, so I can rule that out. I'm positive they're all on their pins.

I thought maybe the aftermarket aluminum crank pulley might be rubbing or hitting something, but I took it off, and it's still not turning very easily. Next, the flywheel and shims. No change. So, I took the heads off next (they were only on temporarily anyway) and it was still too difficult. Then came the cylinders, and then came easier movement again. So I put the pistons and cylinders on, and suddenly ........ bad news.

And here's where my confusion compounds. From what I've read here on the Samba, and on several diff. threads mind you, I'm under the impression that the engine that I'm rebuilding is supposed to spin very easily, just as if it were a well broken in engine. I can't see how that's possible, because when I install new conn. rods with new bearings on my new crank (all in tolerance too), there is some resistance. It's noticeable enough, but I don't think there's a problem. I thought it was just normal, since everything is new, and it's got assembly lube all over it instead of thin oil. Am I just trying to convince myself that there isn't a problem?

So ... the main thing is, when I had all this stuff on it (no spark plugs), it was definitely too hard to turn over. I see there's a problem, but I'm not sure what it is. Should I expect my pistons and cylinder to be out of tolerance or something? Secondly, how much resistance is normal. It looks like I'm splitting the case again (NUTS!)......... but I don't see that I have any other options. I have to find out what's going on, which means backtracking. Geez, I'm not getting very far, am I?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:35 am    Post subject: Re: The 1641 for my Detroit money pit Reply with quote

did you check ring gap? did you lubricate cylinders? if rods drop nicely on crank than you don't need to split case again.

i had some mis machined rods once that wouldn't drop, but doesn't sound like that's your issue. if cylinders look nicely honed I would think cylindricity would be in spec, but ID could be off. make sure you didn't pinch a ring in there when you loaded pistons in cylinders.
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