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1969 westy front disc brake kit
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vwdave33
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:39 pm    Post subject: 1969 westy front disc brake kit Reply with quote

Is this a good kit and will It stop that much better than stock for the price?
Id like to keep my stock wide five rims instead of taking parts off a 1971


https://www.ebay.com/itm/FRONT-DISC-BRAKE-KIT-For-...1438.l2649
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 4:10 pm    Post subject: Re: 1969 westy front disc brake kit Reply with quote

Did you end up getting that kit? If so, how do you like it?
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 9:59 am    Post subject: Re: 1969 westy front disc brake kit Reply with quote

Your original wheels may not fit over the calipers. I put the 71 stuff onto my 68 and had to change teh wheels.
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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 1:42 pm    Post subject: Re: 1969 westy front disc brake kit Reply with quote

FYI, I'm putting the Wagons west kit on my bus instead.

I'll be able to run my original wheels. I'm keeping the power booster and master setup from the 71 though.
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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 10:19 pm    Post subject: Re: 1969 westy front disc brake kit Reply with quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

I went with Oldspeed. My stock 14” wheels work fine.
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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 7:14 am    Post subject: Re: 1969 westy front disc brake kit Reply with quote

vwdave33 wrote:
Is this a good kit and will It stop that much better than stock for the price?


I can’t comment on the quality of the kit, but I can comment that most everything else they make is garbage. Not something I want to experiment on... There’s a reason the CSP kit is more than twice the price though...

If you can lock the tires with your drum brakes, discs will not help you stop any better. They will probably do better in heavy water crossings and car shows though. If you can’t lock the tires with your drum brakes, please fix them first before going shopping for shiny new stuff.

Robbie
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Hikelite
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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 7:34 am    Post subject: Re: 1969 westy front disc brake kit Reply with quote

asiab3 wrote:
vwdave33 wrote:
Is this a good kit and will It stop that much better than stock for the price?


I can’t comment on the quality of the kit, but I can comment that most everything else they make is garbage. Not something I want to experiment on... There’s a reason the CSP kit is more than twice the price though...

If you can lock the tires with your drum brakes, discs will not help you stop any better. They will probably do better in heavy water crossings and car shows though. If you can’t lock the tires with your drum brakes, please fix them first before going shopping for shiny new stuff.

Robbie


With all due respect Robbie, stopping power isn't the only benefit of discs. A vented rotor is going to perform better than a drum when you finish that long climb and start heading down the other side of the mountain. Brake fade is a bitch.
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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 7:54 am    Post subject: Re: 1969 westy front disc brake kit Reply with quote

where is the correct proportioning valve and disc master cylinder in the kit? Or is this just a kit for show, and peacocks?
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Last edited by SGKent on Tue May 29, 2018 7:54 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 7:54 am    Post subject: Re: 1969 westy front disc brake kit Reply with quote

Hikelite wrote:
With all due respect Robbie, stopping power isn't the only benefit of discs. A vented rotor is going to perform better than a drum when you finish that long climb and start heading down the other side of the mountain. Brake fade is a bitch.


In theory yes, but I’ve climbed and descended every mountain range in the United States, and the only brake fade I ever felt was going down Old Priest Grade in second gear instead of first. In my recent engine-off descent from 6,000’ to sea level, the front drums did not get any hotter than 300* under the hubcap. Commuting on those garbage Southern California roads that have 60mph speed limits and red lights every mile, the drums get to about 280*.

I saw a higher-priced disc brake kit installed on a ‘68 a few years ago. Good installation, no shortcuts, the works. That kit’s pad retaining pins and pads FELL OUT on a climb up a mountain. A few presses of the brakes and the disc ate through the caliper pistons and let all the fluid out. There is NO WAY that these untested aftermarket kits should EVER be allowed for sale for use on public roads. It’s a lovely thing to think about the hypothetical advantages, but application in harsh conditions requires thorough testing and research. Do you trust EMPI or some dude in his garage CNC setup to do that? Until then, I don’t want their setup on the same roads as me and my family.

Robbie
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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 7:56 am    Post subject: Re: 1969 westy front disc brake kit Reply with quote

Quote:
and the only brake fade I ever felt was going down Old Priest Grade in second gear instead of first.


Hi Robbie - even late bays with huge discs feel fade coming down that grade. It is like a straight drop for 2 or 3 miles. Done it many times. Always wonder if we will stop when we get to that stop sign at the bottom. Sable gets really hot too and it has 4-wheel disc.
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Hikelite
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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 9:02 am    Post subject: Re: 1969 westy front disc brake kit Reply with quote

The argument that one can't do better than VW engineering is tired.

If VW achieved the pinnacle of brake engineering for a bus in 1968, then why did they change them?

I understand the argument for staying original. It's a valid argument.

My bus is not 100% stock. Yours isn't either.

I see no problem with upgrading systems to take advantage of technological advances that came after my bus was manufactured.

In regards to the proportioning valve, I have the valve from the 71 brakes that the other parts came from. Is it the "correct" valve? Correct for what? My 68 didn't have one afaik. My understanding of this device is to send more of the hydraulic force to the front brakes rather than the rear so you don't lock up the rear brakes before the fronts. I would think the ideal would be for all 4 wheels to lock up together. I don't really want to put flat spots on my brand new tires doing any pavement testing, but maybe I can test on a dirt road.

Yes, there are many aftermarket parts that suck, but that doesn't mean they all do. You're doing a disservice to some of the folks selling these parts.

My father in law likes to remind us of the 80/20 rule. His theory is that 80% of the people in a job are incompetent at that job. Observation makes me think he may not be too far off.

My suspicion is that you both fall into the 20% category, but recognize that there are others in there with you. Not all aftermarket part vendors are clueless and sell garbage.

As far as safety, what's the concern? As you said, once you lock up the tire, all brake systems perform the same. How hard do you have to push on that pedal to lock the wheels though? Isn't it safer to not have to push on the brake pedal like some machine at the gym? If the disc brakes make me stop in a shorter distance, I don't see how that's less safe.
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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 9:16 am    Post subject: Re: 1969 westy front disc brake kit Reply with quote

the portioning valve is used to prevent the rear from locking up as the weight transfers forward. The grip of a tire is proportional to the weight on it until the side wall strength is exceeded. Once the rears are loose on a car in heavy braking it has a tendency to instantly swap ends with the drag moving the front to the rear if it doesn't leave the road, roll, or hit a tree first as it leaves the road endswapping. Ever see a cop car do a pit maneuver on a car - what they are doing is knocking the rear tires loose and poof the other car spins.

The portioning valve is used to prevent the car from becoming squirrely as all hell. Whether the 1971 one will work or not depends on the system. The amount of fluid used in the drum cylinders will be different than the amount used on disc calipers. The master cylinder bore is designed to compensate for that. Together the master and the proportioning valve are used to make sure that the brakes are applied in a manner that the car doesn't end swap. Typically when a car is designed, whether a street car, or a race car, a skid pad is used both dry and wet to test the behavior of the braking. An adjustable valve or pedal arrangement is used to dial in the pressures both front and rear until the car has an acceptable performance on dry and wet surfaces.

Being stock has nothing to do with it. If you want better brakes, find someone who has invested some time on a skid pad in a bus trying to improve it. I don't know of anyone here who has done that. You can be the first if you want, and you can become the expert in it, but please don't flame those of us who have already considered and rejected a swap like this for reasons you haven't yet considered.
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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 9:52 am    Post subject: Re: 1969 westy front disc brake kit Reply with quote

SGKent wrote:
I do agree that you are certainly in that 80% who don't understand how the balance of the brakes work


Nice flame after I made efforts to compliment you.

I do understand how the systems work. Making assumptions about others' intelligence makes me question yours.

Is it only brake upgrades that get your panties into a bunch? What about headlights? Is better visibility at night a safety issue too because VW hasn't done lab testing? What about changing lap belts to 3 pt belts?

You do seem to understand the purpose of a proportioning valve. It's exactly as I described.

Your safety argument is a concern that the rear brakes will lock up first. You're right, that's a big problem! Now think it through... If the rear brakes are the same, how does this happen if you improve the front braking power? Wouldn't that increase the tendency to lock up the front wheels first?

I'm not arguing the need for a "correct" proportioning valve. There are 3 ranges we can think about. The valve either sends too much or too little pressure to the rear brakes, or it's just right. Obviously, the goal is to have the 'Goldilocks' valve that makes all 4 wheels lock up at the same time under the widest variety of conditions. The "correct" valve selection will always be the one that performs best in the most situations. It's unlikely to be "ideal" in most situations, so in reality, you're always trying to hit a moving target and end up with a valve that works "pretty good" in most situations.

If the valve is to either side of this 'sweet spot', then it sends too much pressure or too little. The situation you described would happen with a valve sending too much pressure. That would be the worst case. If we have the opposite situation, ie the valve sends too little pressure to the rear brakes, then the effect is simply increased stopping distance. The stopping distance might still be better then with front drums however a well balanced proportioning valve would shorten the stopping distance with the disc brakes. My suspicion is the 71 valve I installed will cause my front brakes to lock up first, but I will do some actual testing to satisfy my own curiosity.
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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 10:03 am    Post subject: Re: 1969 westy front disc brake kit Reply with quote

you already made clear we were all idiots for not agreeing with you when you stated your 80/20 rule. If that is how you feel about people so be it.
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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 10:07 am    Post subject: Re: 1969 westy front disc brake kit Reply with quote

SGKent wrote:
you already made clear we were all idiots for not agreeing with you when you stated your 80/20 rule. If that is how you feel about people so be it.


That comment was in reference to the idea that the after market brake systems being offered were not well engineered. It was not aimed at you or anyone else posting here.

Just to make sure I understand you. As long as I agree with you it's OK? But if I defend my view, I'm wrong. OK good to know.
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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 10:32 am    Post subject: Re: 1969 westy front disc brake kit Reply with quote

You don't have to agree with me but we can't get away from the science and math though. The forces involved don't cut any of us slack. There are things when going from drum brakes to disc brakes that have to be considered more than just how to physically mount a disc and caliper instead of a drum. You will likely need to add the correct proportioning/pressure reducing valve, and possibly change the master cylinder too. The timing and balance between the front and rear brakes must be correct or the car will become uncontrollable in situations when you are not expecting it. The only way to know is to put the discs on, take it out onto a skid pad and see how it behaves.
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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 1:30 pm    Post subject: Re: 1969 westy front disc brake kit Reply with quote

When I first got my 70 Campmobile, the brakes were scary until I replaced the entire system with all new German MC, cylinders, hoses, etc. All was good after and I could lockup the brakes,etc. Everyone said a good, stock system is just as good as disc and that it would be a waste of money without adding a booster so I let the whole disc thing go for a few years. Then I decided to just bite the bullet and try it. If it was a wash I thought the maintenance would be eased.

I narrowed my decision down to Wagenswest, CSP and Oldspeed. All work with my stock 14” wheels. I can say my Oldspeed disc brakes are more consistent than my stock setup. Mileage may vary I’m sure, but that’s my experience. Mostly I noticed when in heavy stop/go California traffic for ~30 minutes and then the road opened up to 55mph then traffic suddenly stops. That’s no problem with my disc setup. For just a run to the grocery store I think it’s a wash.

It would be a fun test to see which is actually better and although I prefer the disc, but agree that there is a drawback to having modernized disc up front and 50 year old drums in the back. The emergency handling in the bus sucked before and still sucks after. When bedding my new brakes I locked them up like I’ve never done with drum, but I’m used to them now. My wife who rarely drives it never even noticed so the improvement isn’t that great in “normal” driving.
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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 4:11 pm    Post subject: Re: 1969 westy front disc brake kit Reply with quote

There is no argument against a good disc brake conversion! But testing HAS to be done to ensure proper brake bias front to rear, proper residual pressure for rear drum operation, proper offset to avoid destroying wheel bearings, proper cooling airflow from stock rim, proper master cylinder bore/stroke sizing, and proper thermal testing of all the components in harsh conditions. Does any disc brake setup go through this before hitting the market? Unless you're converting to a late VW bus system, the answer is no.

Robbie
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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 4:35 pm    Post subject: Re: 1969 westy front disc brake kit Reply with quote

Agreed, just because it's shiny and expensive doesn't mean it's good. VW ditched the drums to compete with the marketing Koolaid most competitors were drinking, sure there's a slightly lower parts count and less maintenance, but why do most large commercial trucks still use drums today? Wink
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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 6:22 pm    Post subject: Re: 1969 westy front disc brake kit Reply with quote

vwdave33 wrote:
Is this a good kit and will It stop that much better than stock for the price?
Id like to keep my stock wide five rims instead of taking parts off a 1971
https://www.ebay.com/itm/FRONT-DISC-BRAKE-KIT-For-...1438.l2649


It would be better to ask. Has anyone tried this kit and how would you rate it?
Disc Brake Conversions

Good luck
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