69 Bay Engine tear-down after overheating.

[CaptainKingsmill]

Last weekend I posted about my 69 Bay which ran without oil and broke down,

Original Topic
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=696633

So this weekend we've stripped it back to find out what exactly had broken.

Firstly, here is Betty in all her glory... and in working condition.

Bumper and engine plate removed.

and finally the engine out, which was as easy as expected.
as you can probably see, there are no heat exchangers on this bus, we knew this when we bought her and it was something i was planning on looking into.
So now that the engine is already out. I'll be fixing this.

Engine bay is a little dirty, so while the engine is out, that'll be completely cleaned

Firstly we took at look at the breather tube, which WillaimM pointed out was corrugated, and that this is bad.
Well it turned out to be worse than that! Not only was it corrugated inside, it was also not held on with anything, and was simply slotted over the cut existing hose... very poor, and very lazy whoever did this.

stripping off the ancillaries was also very easy, nothing bound or locked, which is probably due to the engines age, or lack of.

Back to long block, nothing untoward so far.

opening the sump and viewing the filter mesh it became very clear that something was very wrong.

Large chunks of metal shavings visible. oh dear.

The heads while in need of some TLC, all seem to have survived with only mild corrosion showing. the cylinders are all clean and clear from any marks. the pistons look okay from the top, with the exception of one, which is showing overheating

Most of the spark plugs looked okay, all had a degree of carbon however.
The exception was this one from chamber 4, which had some crap on it.

removing piston 4, all of the problems became visible.
it shows impact with something on the inside edge,

The view inside shows a that a bearing seems to have melted to the con rod, or shattered, causing the crank to seize,

it will rotate, but only through about 30degrees,
as a result, I am unable to remove 2 of the 4 pistons without cracking the case.

the last 2 photos, show the extent of the metal work within the case.

So, as you can see. quite significant damage to the one piston, the crank is also likely dead, and the case will need to be split, inspected, and polished to remove any marks caused by the metal being flung around.

with regards to my options.
it is possible to buy just piston heads? I only seem to be able to buy pistons AND cylinders.
Are they paired in such a way that you can only purchase them as a set??
My thinking is, the cheapest way to fix this, would be a new short block, and new pistons.
reuse existing heads and cylinders rebuild, and away we go!

second option would be a new long block, which obviously would be more expensive.
If I can only buy the pistons and cylinders as a set though, then there wouldn't be a worthwhile saving buying a short block and I may as well buy the long block.

Does anyone have any thoughts, on what they would do?

Thanks for your help so far. I've really enjoyed the process of learning this engine so far, looking forward to getting a new one and getting her working again.

[SGKent]

you will need to inspect the case carefully. When a bearing gets hot enough to melt, then the case adjacent to that bearing gets hot too and it can warp. When this happens the case halves will not sit together properly causing the next build to fail also. Look at the color on the crank bearing that seized. If it is blued then the case may be no good.

The pistons have to fit to the cylinder at a specific clearance. They are matched at the factory. If you buy oversize pistons then a machine shop has to bore out the existing cylinders which may cost as much as new pistons and liners.

If it is a rod bearing that has seized, check carefully for a loose oil pickup. If you were low on oil or sucking in air that air usually exits on #2 rod. If it is #2 that is damaged consider that the engine was low on oil.

Also inspect the oil pump carefully. That much metal floating around may have scored the oil pump badly.

Do inspect each part until you understand why it failed. Do you have an oil pressure gauge on it? If so, what was it saying before it failed? How many miles are on the engine?
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[Spike0180]

Ouch, looks rough. Thank you for sharing the carnage, it's good for the rest of the newbies here (me) to have a better understanding of what bad looks like, and how much metal would be in the sump plate. In my opinion, if you don't have someone to guide you through your first long block build, then I would buy a long block. I do not think you can buy just pistons without the cylinders (except in the classifieds maybe, actually my buddy here in Detroit would probably sell you just pistons. Let me know if you want his contact info), and I'm not super convinced you would want to. They need to fit together very well and if the new ones aren't made just right you will put excess stress/wear on your rings and pre-maturely wear them out. The performance engine/trans forum would have better knowledge of that though.
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Brutis Patches Izabich: 1970 VW Transporter - 1776cc DP
Current State: Projects never truly end...
Location: Grosse Pointe, Michigan
Other cars: 2003 F150, 2003 Jetta GLI vr6-6sp

Sambastic: adj; the quality of being nit picky, elitist, expecting everyone to do things the way they believe is best with no regard to situation, "sambastic"

[williamM]

thats good advise all around- I have a set of oversize pistons -however- discovered the shops wanted $60 each to over bore them- and most wouldn't even take the job as they had no way of securing them in the machine- might have just been an excuse.

Noticed you have no stoppers in the fan shroud where the bright tubes are coming from. That would have bled cooling air from the motor and fed it to the j pipes- But if your going for new heater boxes that should solve that.

with out more cleaning and disassembly of the heads- they look suspicious- one spark plug hole may have a crack and the seats look a little deep to me on a few.
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[SGKent]

reviewing your photos, to me it looks like the clearances are so tight from a long stroke that the piston was hitting a crankshaft counterweight when it was at BDC. See if there is aluminum transfer onto the counterweight that piston connects to. Maybe the endplay got excessive so the crank moved into the piston. I don't know but that is one possibility, although the inspection will reveal what actually happened.
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[Volswagon]

Those J-pipes heat the heads. The holes in the fan housing need to be plugged (tennis balls work in a pinch). Heater boxes are cooled by the fan or the cores would melt. Also thicker cylinder walls are better than thinner, no boring.
Sorry about the mess, been there.
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I know the pieces fit, cos I watched them fall away.
Wanna hear God laugh? Just talk about your plans.

'75 Bus https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=697183&highlight=

[cmonSTART]

Ouch!

Sorry for your issues, but thanks for following up on your previous post! Good luck with the repairs - sure is a pretty bus!
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'78 Bus 2.0FI
de K1IGS

[ToolBox]

Most of your tin looks like aftermarket stuff, which lacks a lot of the correct air vanes and baffles. Looks like the wrong Type I tin used in the front and not the correct Type II tin with the extension.


If it's not cooling right that leads other systems to fail.

[sjbartnik]

While you are working on this engine build do yourself a favor and source a correct VW fan housing. You have some aftermarket garbage on there now which certainly could lead to cooling problems.

A Bus being pushed around by that 1600 needs the stock cooling system in good working order.

Also source yourself a correct oil bath air cleaner. You'll be amazed how much better the Bus drives when you have the intake air preheat function of the stock air cleaner working as it was designed, especially in your climate.

You've got a lot of work ahead of you, sad to say. Do take SGKent's advice, this is not gonna be a "slap some new pistons and a new crank in and call it good" kinda job.
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1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650

[mikedjames]

You might find for instance that somebody has a complete set of secondhamd pistons and cylinders that were removed before an upgrade of the engine. Like I have a set of worn but usable 1641 pistons and cylinders sitting in a cardboard box. I do not want to throw them away but nor do I ever wamt to use them myself. They had new rings fitted but they did not improve.

Get some prpoerly fitting tinware and block the air ducts .. its probably why the oil light always flickered. .. my old engine had to get seriously hot to flicker the oil light at idle.
And a tinware seal.

Even if the case is damaged you might get lucky .. I picked up a rusted up semi water filled siezed engine for £51 and after a lot of cleaning up I had a case which has now run 19000 miles without reboring .. needed new bearings pistons ans cylinders amd recycled cylinder heads asfter lappjng in the valves. Total xost £600 but the pistons and cylinders were £250 of that ... almost used the old ones.[/code]
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Ancient vehicles and vessels

1974 VW T2 : Devon Eurovette camper with 1641 DP T1 engine, Progressive carb, full flow oil cooler, EDIS crank timed ignition.
Engine 1: 40k miles (rocker shaft clip fell off), Engine 2: 30k miles (rebuild, dropped valve). Engine 3: a JK Preservation Parts "new" engine, aluminium case: 26k miles: new top end.
Gearbox rebuild 2021 by Bears.

1979 Westerly GK24 24 foot racer/cruiser yacht Forethought of Gosport.
1973 wooden Pacer sailing dinghy

[CaptainKingsmill]

Thank you all for your replies so far! Most appreciated.

I think, based on the advice, I'm going to go with a new long block, rather than try and salvage anything from this one.
I think it's the best option to avoid any future issues.

[SGKent]

Sometimes when a rod bearing fails the crank journal is so eaten away that the piston travels farther than it should and hits things.

Buying a long block is probably a good decision, ask around to find who is building the most reliable engines these days. You want something that will last 70,000 - 90,000 miles. Air cooled Buses & Vanagons are really hard on engines compared to any other air cooled VW.
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[spanky324]

Awesome Powdercoat sell nice tins!

[raygreenwood]

The square relay looking part you found is a voltage regulator for a stock type 4 style VW alternator. Ray

[busdaddy]

[sjbartnik]

[GBear29]

[CaptainKingsmill]

Hi all!

I've managed to source a reconditioned engine! Picking it up on Friday, planning to install it next weekend!
it's a 1600 to directly replace the one currently in.
The good news is, I've also managed to get a set of heat exchangers, i'm hoping that will go a long way to reducing the overheating issue.

This weekend, as if a new engine wasn't enough to contend with, I'm planning to rewire Betty.
The existing wiring is a mess, and realistically the only way i'm going to be able to get it back to a decent standard is to rip the lot out and start again!
I've got cable arriving on Friday.

I will of course try to take photos for you.
Wish me luck!!

also, If anyone knows, I could really do with an answer on the asbestos looking stuff in my previous post as I was hoping to get rid of that this weekend.

[lil-jinx]

I would not rip the wiring out,check it over and repair and clean as required,also pull the firewall off and have a look at the fuel tank,maybe replace your fuel lines.
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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620186
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=668799
1974 Bay Westfalia. she likes to be called Ethel.
1968 Dune Buggy
1974 parts bus
A smart man learns from his mistakes,a very smart man learns from other's mistakes.

[busdaddy]

I don't know if the tarboards contain any asbestos, it's likely safe to assume they do to some degree just in case. I usually remove them during a job such as the one you are currently on and get them wet, then I lay them out on a concrete floor and lay a sheet of plywood on them with sand bags or other weights, in a few days to a week they are dry and ready for another 40+ years of sagging.

They don't do alot to stop heat, but they definitely soak up some sound, buses I've driven when they were removed were much louder back there.
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