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k-weaver
Samba Member
Joined: November 27, 2012
Posts: 69
Location: Santa Maria, CA
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 Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:27 am Post subject: Clutch disc recommendations for 2110 |
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Looking for advice on which clutch disc to run. I've been fighting issues with my car for a while and just this weekend got it dialed in. I had a very old Kennedy pressure plate (dated '94 on the diaphragm) with an EMPI HD disc. It was holding fine, grabbing hard but car had weird issues (wouldn't want to go into gear, idle drop when clutch pressed, etc...).
I had planned to swap the PP because the pedal was rock hard (felt like i was going to rip the seat off the pan when pressing it in!) and in process I realized the arm the cable goes through (on the trans, where the wing nut is) was bent. That was a nightmare to deal with but finally got it sorted. While there I swapped the PP for a new Kennedy Stage 1 I picked up.
So now the car is fine, runs great, no more weird issues. BUT...Clutch is now slipping in the 1-2 gear change. Runs totally fine if you drive it easy to semi-aggressive. But if you dump the clutch at 7k rpm on a 1-2 gear change it slips. With the old PP it would chirp/spin the tires.
So its obvious the old PP was a stronger one. I don't want the pedal to be rock hard though. I have a Daikin disc that I was planning to use for another build but I could swap it into this car no problem. Just wondering if it'll hold or if I should go with an even beefier disc. (I was eyeballing the 1301 Dual Friction Clutch Disc from CB)
Any advice is appreciated. No idea how much hp/tq the motor makes. I can go into build details if it'll help (2110, FK8, 44x37 heads, 44idfs). Car is setup for street/strip. |
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Glenn 
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76940
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:33 am Post subject: Re: Clutch disc recommendations for 2110 |
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KEP Stage 1 with a Copperhead disc on a 2180. Never a problem and the hotter it gets, the better it grabs.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
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74 Thing
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jpaull
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005
Posts: 3466
Location: Paradise, Ca
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:03 am Post subject: Re: Clutch disc recommendations for 2110 |
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You put a new pressure plate on with your old used disk?
If you decide to replace 1 part of your clutch, you really need to do all 3. For a chance at holding and working right you have to at least start out with New Disk, New Pressure plate, and resurfaced flywheel.
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[email protected] MPH 1/4 Mile & 8.1 @ 83.7MPH in 1/8 Mile with Mild Type 1 VW Mag Case 2234cc commuter engine in stock weight bug w/only .491 total lift(CB2292 Cam), 42x37 heads, 48idf's, Street tires, Belt on, Mufflers, Pump gas, video of the run here: https://youtu.be/M3SPqMOKAOg
Transmission by MCMScott:
Rhino case, Klinkenberg 4.12, Superdiff, 002 mainshaft with 091 first idler. Weddle 1.48 Third & 1.14 Fourth. |
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mcmscott
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Joined: March 12, 2010
Posts: 4858
Location: sanger ca
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:08 am Post subject: Re: Clutch disc recommendations for 2110 |
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Stage 2 and stock disk, good for into 11 second times with a full weight car. My personal car has seen 12.20's with this, a friends car has seen 11.70's with this. Keep the disk as light as possible.
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76940
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:12 am Post subject: Re: Clutch disc recommendations for 2110 |
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Stage 2 can be murder on the left foot when driving in traffic.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
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k-weaver
Samba Member
Joined: November 27, 2012
Posts: 69
Location: Santa Maria, CA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:29 am Post subject: Re: Clutch disc recommendations for 2110 |
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| jpaull wrote: |
You put a new pressure plate on with your old used disk?
If you decide to replace 1 part of your clutch, you really need to do all 3. For a chance at holding and working right you have to at least start out with New Disk, New Pressure plate, and resurfaced flywheel. |
The old clutch was basically new. Less than 15 miles on it, really just going around the block to test the car. |
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k-weaver
Samba Member
Joined: November 27, 2012
Posts: 69
Location: Santa Maria, CA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:34 am Post subject: Re: Clutch disc recommendations for 2110 |
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| Glenn wrote: |
| Stage 2 can be murder on the left foot when driving in traffic. |
This is why i ended up going with a Stage 1 KEP. There is no way the motor is exceeding the tq limits of that PP. From other posts (Thanks for the link @ 74 Thing) I think the Daikin disc I have should hold. I'll swap that this week and report back with the findings. |
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UK Luke 72
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mcmscott
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Joined: March 12, 2010
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Location: sanger ca
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:48 am Post subject: Re: Clutch disc recommendations for 2110 |
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| Glenn wrote: |
| Stage 2 can be murder on the left foot when driving in traffic. |
If a stage 2 is that bad something else is wrong, and if you dont like a heavy pressure plate just use a longer arm, easy on the leg and easier on the tranny.
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There are no stupid questions, only stupid people,
68 Ghia
67 T-1
65 Notch
02 Mexican beetle
74 Thing
15 Long travel rail
07 Nomad
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76940
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:51 am Post subject: Re: Clutch disc recommendations for 2110 |
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| mcmscott wrote: |
| Glenn wrote: |
| Stage 2 can be murder on the left foot when driving in traffic. |
If a stage 2 is that bad something else is wrong, and if you dont like a heavy pressure plate just use a longer arm, easy on the leg and easier on the tranny. |
Already have the 100mm arm.
Guess you never drove in New York traffic.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
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k-weaver
Samba Member
Joined: November 27, 2012
Posts: 69
Location: Santa Maria, CA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 1:09 pm Post subject: Re: Clutch disc recommendations for 2110 |
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| mcmscott wrote: |
| Glenn wrote: |
| Stage 2 can be murder on the left foot when driving in traffic. |
If a stage 2 is that bad something else is wrong, and if you dont like a heavy pressure plate just use a longer arm, easy on the leg and easier on the tranny. |
I might take this route for another build i've been working on, that car will be like 90% track. I had no idea longer arms were available. |
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Onceler
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Joined: May 28, 2010
Posts: 1647
Location: Indiana
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 5:11 pm Post subject: Re: Clutch disc recommendations for 2110 |
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| mcmscott wrote: |
| Glenn wrote: |
| Stage 2 can be murder on the left foot when driving in traffic. |
If a stage 2 is that bad something else is wrong, and if you dont like a heavy pressure plate just use a longer arm, easy on the leg and easier on the tranny. |
Mcmscott, I've seen you recommend this setup on another thread and was wondering why the light disk is easier on the tranny? I know jack squat about transmissions is why I'm asking, but thinking about what to get for my new engine
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mcmscott
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Joined: March 12, 2010
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Location: sanger ca
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 5:42 pm Post subject: Re: Clutch disc recommendations for 2110 |
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| Onceler wrote: |
| mcmscott wrote: |
| Glenn wrote: |
| Stage 2 can be murder on the left foot when driving in traffic. |
If a stage 2 is that bad something else is wrong, and if you dont like a heavy pressure plate just use a longer arm, easy on the leg and easier on the tranny. |
Mcmscott, I've seen you recommend this setup on another thread and was wondering why the light disk is easier on the tranny? I know jack squat about transmissions is why I'm asking, but thinking about what to get for my new engine |
Simple, mass in motion stays in motion, the synchro rings have to synchronize the input shafts speed to the gear that is engaging. The lighter the mass in motion (clutch disk) is, the easier it is for the synchro to do its job.
If you like missed shifts then by all means use a heavy disk.
If you are not planning to shift aggressive then it doesn't matter, but if you are shifting like a Granny whats the point in having a "performance" clutch in the first place.
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There are no stupid questions, only stupid people,
68 Ghia
67 T-1
65 Notch
02 Mexican beetle
74 Thing
15 Long travel rail
07 Nomad
05 f-250 |
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Onceler
Samba Member
Joined: May 28, 2010
Posts: 1647
Location: Indiana
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:41 pm Post subject: Re: Clutch disc recommendations for 2110 |
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| mcmscott wrote: |
| Onceler wrote: |
| mcmscott wrote: |
| Glenn wrote: |
| Stage 2 can be murder on the left foot when driving in traffic. |
If a stage 2 is that bad something else is wrong, and if you dont like a heavy pressure plate just use a longer arm, easy on the leg and easier on the tranny. |
Mcmscott, I've seen you recommend this setup on another thread and was wondering why the light disk is easier on the tranny? I know jack squat about transmissions is why I'm asking, but thinking about what to get for my new engine |
Simple, mass in motion stays in motion, the synchro rings have to synchronize the input shafts speed to the gear that is engaging. The lighter the mass in motion (clutch disk) is, the easier it is for the synchro to do its job.
If you like missed shifts then by all means use a heavy disk.
If you are not planning to shift aggressive then it doesn't matter, but if you are shifting like a Granny whats the point in having a "performance" clutch in the first place. |
I see, thanks for the explanation. I wonder if there's a good way to lighten the copperhead disc, I'm sure if it was a good idea someone would've done it by now though
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:44 pm Post subject: Re: Clutch disc recommendations for 2110 |
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Then why not a 3 puck?
" 3 Pucks are lighter in rotating mass than 4 Pucks, for faster shifting that is easier on your transaxle. RACE USE ONLY. "
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
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modok
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Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26790
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:51 pm Post subject: Re: Clutch disc recommendations for 2110 |
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Seems to me kennedy pressure plates, over the years, some are a lot stiffer than others.
You HEAR "pedal to me feels same as stock" next guy says IT"S SO STIFF I need knee surgery now"
Some of that is subjective, but some of it's also true.
They aren't all created equal.
The cars aren't all the same either. I think if they have a LOT of miles the cable wears a groove into the tube INSIDE, and really binds up the cable. |
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esde
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Joined: October 20, 2007
Posts: 5969
Location: central rust belt
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:56 pm Post subject: Re: Clutch disc recommendations for 2110 |
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| mcmscott wrote: |
| just use a longer arm, easy on the leg and easier on the tranny. |
I've got long arms and still can't reach the clutch pedal from the drivers seat. 
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modok wrote:
Bent cranks are silent but gather no moss. I mean, ah, something like that. |
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mcmscott
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Joined: March 12, 2010
Posts: 4858
Location: sanger ca
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:00 pm Post subject: Re: Clutch disc recommendations for 2110 |
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| Glenn wrote: |
Then why not a 3 puck?
" 3 Pucks are lighter in rotating mass than 4 Pucks, for faster shifting that is easier on your transaxle. RACE USE ONLY. "
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Three pucks shift bitchen! but thet engage extremly harsh, very violent. I'm sure even you can see the difference between a good light, woven disk and a puck, can't you?
And that puck has probably more mass in motion than a stovk woven disk btw
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There are no stupid questions, only stupid people,
68 Ghia
67 T-1
65 Notch
02 Mexican beetle
74 Thing
15 Long travel rail
07 Nomad
05 f-250 |
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esde
Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2007
Posts: 5969
Location: central rust belt
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:03 pm Post subject: Re: Clutch disc recommendations for 2110 |
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Is it just me, or do the new Kennedy diaphragm style pressure plates, and old style 3 arm plates feel differently?
I have the old style in my bus, and the new style in the car, both stage 1. The old style has a more even pressure over the pedal travel. The new style seems to increase as you push, but then seems to lighten up at the end when the pedal is all the way depressed.
SD
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modok wrote:
Bent cranks are silent but gather no moss. I mean, ah, something like that. |
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