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Gruppe B Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2007 Posts: 1331
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Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:12 am Post subject: Re: Rear heater heat output/BTU (Thinking of swapping for Espar) |
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My 1985 is running the Espar D2 and the rear heater. The stock rear heater is so nice to have while driving in winter conditions I couldn't justify it's removal.
The D2 can run fine while driving, but I prefer having the simple coolant heater for that. My D2 is perfect for supplying heat once stopped.
Lost space isnt too bad either as the D2 is pretty compact. I installed it on the right side of the coolant heater. and still have lots of storage space. |
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vwwestyman Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2004 Posts: 5688 Location: Manhattan, Kansas, USA
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Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:55 am Post subject: Re: Rear heater heat output/BTU (Thinking of swapping for Espar) |
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Thank you for your comments!
Depending on the source, the cost difference between a D2 and D4 looks to be anywhere from a couple hundred bucks to nearly double.
So I think if I were to buy a new one, I'd probably go with the D4. Looks like you can sometimes find a used one here and there, though, and D2s are probably more plentiful. _________________ Dave Cook
President, Wild Westerner Club
1978 Champagne Edition Westy, repowered to '97 Jetta TDI
1973 Wild Westerner
My Thing |
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davevickery Samba Member
Joined: July 16, 2005 Posts: 2887 Location: Fort Collins, CO
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Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:49 am Post subject: Re: Rear heater heat output/BTU |
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I have a Webasto 3900 gas heater in my current van. It is a bit overkill.
The D4 would be a decent choice though, it's heat output range is wider. My Webasto 3900 is a little too powerful for camping in the spring and fall but is great for quick warms up and does fine in the dead of winter with the top up. These heaters with the glow plug are desgined to run continuously and just lower the fan speed automatically as the demand decreases. When they are too big, in moderate temperatures they will cycle on and off because they can't rev down enough. That causes extra camping noise because the fan comes on at about 70% during startup and wakes me up. Insulated ducting can help a lot with that. So anything bigger than the D4 wouild be a mistake I think.
I think the D2 would be fine too. It would help regardless of the outside temps as an aux driving heater. If you had little kids in the back, possibly you would need the D4 but I think 6-7K it is plenty for winter camping and you can add insulation to the windows worst case. The 2K Watt (6-7K BTU) heaters are generally the best size for a vanagon, enough heat, more efficient, smaller, less expensive, and you can do other things to minimize heat loss.
The issues I have with mine being too powerful is not as much a problem with the D4. It can cycle down more than mine. My lowest BTU setting on mine is about 5500 but the Espars can cycle down to something like 3000 BTUs which is preferable. The D2 cycles down to about 2100 IIRC so there isn't too much difference and both of those heaters will be able to keep running in moderate temps while mine has to shut down and then restart which is annoying. The D4 would work faster as warm up heater which is nice. I don't sleep with my heater on all the time and waiting for the smaller heater to warm the van up is not that practical. You will want to get up and moving before it has really warmed the van up a lot. Also as a preheater when sitting in the driveway, bigger is nice on those 10 degree mornings.
The stated output of the rear stock heater must be pretty high. Similar sized coolant heaters look like they are rated to 20K BTUs or so. But in practice I think my 13K BTU gas heater is as strong as the rear heater. I had a 17K BTU Eberspacher gas heater that for sure seemed more powerful than the rear heater. But that could be just because the output air temperature burning gas is way higher than the air temp from the coolant heater.
So I think you could go with either the D2 or D4 and be happy. More isn't always better but if there was no cost difference I'd go with the D4. Since they cost quite a bit more, I'd probably go with the D2. If you didn't have any sort of front heater, I would say the D2 wouldn't be enough as your only heat source, but as a helper heater I think it would be fine. VW put the optional 2K Watt heaters in the aircooled bugs and the 4K Watt heaters in the air cooled vans. But those were designed for only intermittent use and ran off a timer and they had no other source of heat.
I don't drive with my gas heater on typically. You should be careful with the intake location and maybe add some sort of intake filter if you are going to do that I think. I get a lot of dust and dirt in my intake hose and I don't even run it while driving. It is like a little vacuum when it is running and if you are kicking up dust while driving, it is getting sucked right into the heater. They can be temperamental too if not keep in perfect working order and clean and used regularly.
Hope that helps. |
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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22670 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:21 am Post subject: Re: Rear heater heat output/BTU |
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Ill swag the output of a generic hot water core heater at 3000 Watts.
When I started needing depends, I stopped doing Imperial units to real units conversions. If you give people crack they stay addicted.
MelB is a British Thermal Unit, all the rest are obsolete _________________ .ssS! |
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?Waldo? Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006 Posts: 9752 Location: Where?
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Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:20 am Post subject: Re: Rear heater heat output/BTU |
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djkeev wrote: |
They've changed things now but the old BTU was bringing one pound of water from 32°F to Boiling 212°F ? |
How far back was the 'old BTU'? For as far back as I can remember it has been defined as the amount of heat required to raise the temperature of a pound of water 1 degree Fahrenheit. |
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dobryan Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006 Posts: 16505 Location: Brookeville, MD
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Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:18 am Post subject: Re: Rear heater heat output/BTU |
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vwwestyman wrote: |
I wish I could remember where I saw the person replacing the rear Vanagon heater with the Espar or whatever, to see how they ended up liking the mod and all that.
Or if there is anyone here who has both and could comment on a comparison that would be great to hear! |
I will be removing the rear heater on my '91 bus that I am building for europe and installing a gas fired heater outside under the floor to heat the rear of the bus while driving and camping. I want to get as much storage under the rear seat as I can and eliminate the potential of a leaking heater later. Thanks for bringing this topic up. It is helpful for me too. _________________ Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD
"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson
MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646
Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371
The Western Syncro build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794 |
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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22670 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:17 am Post subject: Re: Rear heater heat output/BTU |
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MarkWard wrote: |
Me? Nope, intake and exhaust are outside the van's passenger compartment. A blower circulates air over the "hot" part of the unit and that is what heats the compartment. After a few camping trips I did add a muffler. I have a couple other photos of the install.
My nose may not be that sensitive. I hear folks complain that cooking in the van stinks it up. We cook all our meals and have a 80 pound dog and everything smells normal to me. So, I may not be the best person to ask. |
We should start a thread on this. _________________ .ssS! |
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WestyWanter Samba Member
Joined: February 15, 2017 Posts: 459 Location: San Diego
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Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:14 am Post subject: Re: Rear heater heat output/BTU |
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MarkWard wrote: |
Me? Nope, intake and exhaust are outside the van's passenger compartment. A blower circulates air over the "hot" part of the unit and that is what heats the compartment. After a few camping trips I did add a muffler. I have a couple other photos of the install.
My nose may not be that sensitive. I hear folks complain that cooking in the van stinks it up. We cook all our meals and have a 80 pound dog and everything smells normal to me. So, I may not be the best person to ask. |
I have a terrible nose so I'm sure I wouldn't notice anything! |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17155 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:10 am Post subject: Re: Rear heater heat output/BTU |
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Me? Nope, intake and exhaust are outside the van's passenger compartment. A blower circulates air over the "hot" part of the unit and that is what heats the compartment. After a few camping trips I did add a muffler. I have a couple other photos of the install.
My nose may not be that sensitive. I hear folks complain that cooking in the van stinks it up. We cook all our meals and have a 80 pound dog and everything smells normal to me. So, I may not be the best person to ask. _________________ ☮️ |
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WestyWanter Samba Member
Joined: February 15, 2017 Posts: 459 Location: San Diego
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Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:06 am Post subject: Re: Rear heater heat output/BTU |
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Maybe a dumb question but do you experience any type of smells? |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17155 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:03 am Post subject: Re: Rear heater heat output/BTU |
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Here are a couple pictures of my D2 install. Our 82 did not have a rear heater core. It takes up about the same amount of space as the WBX rear heater core assembly. That storage is rarely accessed, so I installed our auxiliary battery and inverter next to the espar. The aluminum cover is to protect the unit as well as the other things that get stored in their.
Unit:
Cover:
For camping, you can't beat it if you have diesel fuel available. _________________ ☮️ |
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vwwestyman Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2004 Posts: 5688 Location: Manhattan, Kansas, USA
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32632 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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vwwestyman Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2004 Posts: 5688 Location: Manhattan, Kansas, USA
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Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:41 am Post subject: Re: Rear heater heat output/BTU |
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Thanks Dan.
I would say it would be pretty rare that I'd be camping in temps lower than 20-30 in most cases. If I get a D2, and happened to be in those low temps, I'd certainly just bring some extra blankets. The Great Dane is also a pretty good warmer!
For purposes of support or finding parts in the future, it makes sense to me to buy one of the name brands (Espar/Eberspacher or Webasto) than one of the Chinese knock-offs. Also seems like the odds of needing a spare part are lower with a German-built unit. _________________ Dave Cook
President, Wild Westerner Club
1978 Champagne Edition Westy, repowered to '97 Jetta TDI
1973 Wild Westerner
My Thing |
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danfromsyr Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004 Posts: 15144 Location: Syracuse, NY
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Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:02 am Post subject: Re: Rear heater heat output/BTU |
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I have a 6k btu Espar diesel in mom's camper and a 9k btu propex in mine.
I'd vote for more than 6k also.
it also depends on just how cold it is that you intend to drive in.
20-30f no problem
0-10f might want more
neg10-0f you want a woodstove. _________________
Abscate wrote: |
These are the reasons we have words like “wanker” |
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WestyWanter Samba Member
Joined: February 15, 2017 Posts: 459 Location: San Diego
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Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:32 am Post subject: Re: Rear heater heat output/BTU |
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I'm not knowledgeable on their comparable BTU output but I have a little buddy heater that puts out 4000-9000BTU and it warms the van up quickly and is more than enough, I'd say you wouldn't need anything more than 9000BTU. |
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vwwestyman Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2004 Posts: 5688 Location: Manhattan, Kansas, USA
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vwwestyman Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2004 Posts: 5688 Location: Manhattan, Kansas, USA
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Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 4:48 am Post subject: Re: Rear heater heat output/BTU |
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djkeev wrote: |
Doug, I think he is trying to figure out if the diesel heater will be larger enough to heat the Bus while underway, replacing the rear under seat water heater completely.
As a bonus, he now has stationary camping heat.
Many, probably most, Vanagon owners keep the rear water heater and add a diesel, or Propane heater. This eliminates the need to burn fuel for warmth while underway instead of using the "free" hot water heat that combustion provides.
Dave |
This is correct. If the heat output is comparable, then I can replace the rear heater with the Espar and actually end up with a little extra space under the rear seat.
I would use it when underway.
Those things are very fuel efficient, and I figure running it while driving isn't much different than using the BA6 in my 1973 Bus.
But if the heat out put of the Vanagon heater is quite a bit more, I'd probably want to keep it. _________________ Dave Cook
President, Wild Westerner Club
1978 Champagne Edition Westy, repowered to '97 Jetta TDI
1973 Wild Westerner
My Thing |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32632 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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IdahoDoug Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2010 Posts: 10251 Location: N. Idaho
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Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:13 pm Post subject: Re: Rear heater heat output/BTU |
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I don't think you are gaining anything here by comparing an engine water heat powered heater to an Espar or another heater designed for engine-off use. Right? What if the engine heater is crazy high? Who cares? You are looking for a camping heater.
Just pointing that out to make things meaningful unless you have something else going on. _________________ 1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader |
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