Front suspension weirdness question

[lastchancevw]

Okay, I'll try to explain this problem the best I can.

1970 Bus.

it was wrecked in 1971, something whacked it on the passenger side seat area where after my dad bought it. The axle beam is straight and rust free, and it appears that the only damage to the front suspension is that the right side tie rod is a little bent (not so bent that it couldn't be straightened)

it sat indoors in various places until I finally got around to putting an engine in it and doing the bodywork. Closer inspection of the front end revealed that the sway bar was missing, so I borrowed it off my other, rusted out bus.

I have driven the car around a bit, but mushy brakes have prevented me from driving too far. The front sits high because (i assume) the shocks are original and yeah, it does handle a little funny with one tie rod slightly bent. What is more distressing is that if you hit any sudden dips, you get a pretty loud THUNK.

What is also strange is that if you bounce either side of the front end up and down, it's noticeable that the tire tends to roll a forward and backward a noticeable amount.

I keep visually comparing the suspension to my other bus and I can't seem to find any other components missing. It also looks like everything is tight and as it should be.

Dad passed away years ago so I can't ask him what he did when he got it, if he replaced the trailing arms (not sure what they're called) or what. It doesn't look like he just stuck things in there loosely so that he could roll the car around.

I guess my next step is to put in some known good shocks, but that bouncing-it-up-and-down making the front wheel go a little back and forward is very very strange. (and it does this on both side)
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1970 Commercial Kombi
1971 rusty Westfalia (retired for now)
1971 ghia (waiting)
1974 super beetle (2, maybe can be made into one)

1969 delta blue deluxe bus, half-camperized and being worked on

[lastchancevw]

A photo of it from 1981 showing how severe (or not so severe) the bodywork damage was).

I guess my question in a nutshell is what would make the wheel want to rock back and forth a little while you bounce the front end up and down. What would be wrong in the front end geometry to cause that?
_________________
1970 Commercial Kombi
1971 rusty Westfalia (retired for now)
1971 ghia (waiting)
1974 super beetle (2, maybe can be made into one)

1969 delta blue deluxe bus, half-camperized and being worked on

[SGKent]

are all 4 bolts holding the beam in place on that side?
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[lastchancevw]

[TDCTDI]

Maybe broke a trailing arm inside the beam & the only thing holding it in place is the spring pack? Possible broken ball joint?
_________________
Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.


GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!


An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.


Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it.

[lastchancevw]

[TDCTDI]

The trailing arm has a polished tube that slides into the beam that rotates within the beam & locates the trailing arms, the spring pack goes through the center of it & is secured to the trailing arm, outside of the beam by the grub screw thus the spring pack is still bearing the weight that it was designed to. Perhaps the tube portion sheared off on impact but the spring is still sorta locating the arm. This is the only thing that I envision given your description of the issue.

Get up under the bus, make sure that there is a jack stand under the bus to catch it so you don't get crushed but still some space between it & the frame so that it can move up & down, have a friend push the bus down & see where the excess movement comes from.
_________________
Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.


GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!


An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.


Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it.

[SGKent]

the wheels should roll a little because they don't go straight up and down but it would only be a little. I would check the torque on the 4 bolts on that side and also check the shock to be sure it isn't broken. You should be able to put it up on jack safety stands and wiggle things looking for play. It could be a bad wheel bearing, loose lug nuts etc. There could be broken leaves in the torsion bars.
_________________
“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[lastchancevw]

[lastchancevw]

https://www.facebook.com/tara.crane.54/videos/10216373383795959/

Not sure if people can see this, but here's a video showing how much front to back motion there is when bumping the car up and down.. That can't be right, right?
_________________
1970 Commercial Kombi
1971 rusty Westfalia (retired for now)
1971 ghia (waiting)
1974 super beetle (2, maybe can be made into one)

1969 delta blue deluxe bus, half-camperized and being worked on

[SGKent]

put all the pieces back in like the sway bar and shocks front and rear, then try it again. I couldn't rock my bus up and down like that if I was the Hulk.
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[TDCTDI]

That looks like normal trailing arm travel as the wheel will move backwards in the arc. Good shock absorbers & getting the sway bar back on will limit the amount of movement that you’re able to cause by bouncing & rocking.
_________________
Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.


GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!


An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.


Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it.

[lastchancevw]

Hmmm that's an acceptable amount of normal front/back travel? okkay.....




btw the sway bar IS in, and it's been in for a while. So this video i showed is with the sway bar already in.

but yeah, I will try shocks first and see if it settles. That sure does seem like a LOT of front/ back travel. I guess maybe the front back travel caused by the arc of the trailing arms is more pronounced if it's near the extremes?

I hadn't planned on doing the rear shocks, but i can get some of them further down the road (well, not the literal road). It's just that I happen to have some recently- bought front shocks for the bus I retired.

I can't at the moment scare up another human to do the rocking up and down so i can look at it from the inside. I do have a family member but getting them to do something while I check something is like pulling teeth in my family.

I guess I need to figure some sort of bribe then.

Thanks everybody for their input.
_________________
1970 Commercial Kombi
1971 rusty Westfalia (retired for now)
1971 ghia (waiting)
1974 super beetle (2, maybe can be made into one)

1969 delta blue deluxe bus, half-camperized and being worked on

[lastchancevw]

Oh hey, I figure i might as well post an update on what's happened with this bus. I haven't driven it much, but have made some progress.

I swapped the shocks out for ones that were known good, bought new within recent memory for a bus I was driving a few years ago (ok, thats a roundabout way of saying "new shocks", and that improved things somewhat.

I discovered the tie rod was bent from the accident, so I got a straight one on there, and the toe-in/toe out is dramatically improved. Handling is better, but still weird and squirrelly. and if you're going over some bumps, it feels like something is undercutting you sideways here and there (that's the best way I can describe it)

However now that I have the shocks sorted out, what seems to be the culprit might be that the lower torsion arm on the accident side is kinda bent inwards, or at least the wheel shows a pretty noticable positive camber. I hear that camber is adjustable through the balljoints though i have never done it? When you look at the suspension from the front, the line going from center of the top to the center of the lower balljoint do not appear to match from side to side.

I suppose this could be a broken/out of whack balljoint but maybe a bent lower torsion arm? Where the heck does one get one of those in 2018? I dont see any vendor selling them, and seems like they don't pop up on the samba classifieds. however, when I bolted the sway bar on to both lower arms, they did line up so perhaps they're not that out of whack?
_________________
1970 Commercial Kombi
1971 rusty Westfalia (retired for now)
1971 ghia (waiting)
1974 super beetle (2, maybe can be made into one)

1969 delta blue deluxe bus, half-camperized and being worked on

[my59]

If you could line up another same year bus next to yours you might be able to compare and see what is up.
Otherwise, get out some straight edges, adjustable bevels, levels and clamps, and start measuring both sides to see if the math matches; something or things might be slightly tweaked.
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my59: Well son, my grandfather died before I got to drive it, so does that answer your question?
our79: sunroof bus w/camper interior and 2.0 FI
Other:'12 Jetta, '77 Benz 300D, and a 74 MG Midget.

[SGKent]

Considering that the first post was April and it is now mid-September, you easily could have had the front end alignment looked at professionally to see what is happening. You lack both the experience and equipment to go farther with this. There is no shame in that but steering must be 100% reliable.
_________________
“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[Abscate]

HARsh love here. But Steve is absolutely right.

Watched the video, that front end is so loose it should not be on the driveway, let alone the road. Hyperbole to make the point.

Get it up in th air, torsion bars out - inspect needle bearings for wear/damage, ball joints are 9:1 odds for being shot - all four, or certainly the two on passenger side.

You will be scavenging for parts for Bays for the rest of your life so start now. The 'new parts' supply chain has been destroyed by the 'I don't want to spend $100 for a ball joint, I only spent $500 for the car" crowd.
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.ssS!

[Spike0180]

My opinion here is mixed. The front back motion seems about right to me. Maybe a little much, but if you watch the wheel right as it hits peak point it seems to jump or flop like you're taking the tension off it completely and the wheel bearing is just missing. Get it up in the air and play with your wheel if you haven't already. You may find that your bearing or hub is messed up from the crash and is causing your squirrelyness too. Also, make sure your lugs are torqued. Those being loose would cause everything too.
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Brutis Patches Izabich: 1970 VW Transporter - 1776cc DP
Current State: Projects never truly end...
Location: Grosse Pointe, Michigan
Other cars: 2003 F150, 2003 Jetta GLI vr6-6sp

Sambastic: adj; the quality of being nit picky, elitist, expecting everyone to do things the way they believe is best with no regard to situation, "sambastic"

[lastchancevw]

[Spike0180]

Reach out to Asiab3, I think he will be out your way around late sept October. A few hours of his time, could save you a lot of time.

Airschooled.com
_________________
Brutis Patches Izabich: 1970 VW Transporter - 1776cc DP
Current State: Projects never truly end...
Location: Grosse Pointe, Michigan
Other cars: 2003 F150, 2003 Jetta GLI vr6-6sp

Sambastic: adj; the quality of being nit picky, elitist, expecting everyone to do things the way they believe is best with no regard to situation, "sambastic"