Emergency Flasher switch/relay wiring

[RainbowManFan]

On my 1972 Super Beetle, the emergency flashers have never worked correctly. If I pull out the switch while the car is running or just with the ignition switch in the "on" position, the flasers work find...red light in switch blinks and all four turn signals just as it should. However, when the car is not running and the switch is off (which would likely be the case if you needed the emergency flashers), it does nothing. All turn signals work fine as well. I have been studying the wiring schematic on the technical tab here and I discovered this. There is a white wire coming for the flasher switch on my car that has been cut. The white wire that is supposed to run from the + terminal on the relay is now connected to the fusebox. Any ideas why this might have been done and do you think the wire from the relay should just be disconnected from the fusebox and spliced into the white wire coming from the switch? If so, I will run a completely new wire later to avoid the splice but just wanted to get some thoughts and suggestions on this.

[sjbartnik]

At the basic level, someone has wired your flasher switch wrong.

If you look at the wiring diagram you will see that the flasher switch has 2 sources of power. One source is hot all the time (red wire on terminal 30) regardless of whether the ignition switch is on or off. This is what allows the flashers to work whether the key is on or off.

The other power source is a black wire that is only hot when the ignition switch is on (terminal 15). This is power for the turn signals. By making turn signal power come from a switched source, this ensures that the turn signals only work with the key on.

The hazard flasher switch doesn't really have anything to do with the operation of the turn signals but VW used it as a power pass-through. Power coming in on terminal 15 is passed through the switch and routed out to the flasher relay from terminal + (white wire).

Then when you use the turn signal switch you complete the circuit by cutting the bulbs into the circuit which makes the flasher relay flash them.

So when you pull out the knob on the flasher switch you disengage power from terminal 15 and cut in power from terminal 30 which similarly gets routed over the white wire to the flasher relay. Pulling out the flasher switch also cuts all 4 bulbs into the circuit and then the flasher relay begins to flash them.

Since you can now see what the white wire does, it should now be apparent to you why the flashers don't work with the key off. Somebody cut the white wire and attached it to a switched fuse at the fuse box, bypassing the flasher switch entirely. So it only works with the key on because that's the only time the flasher relay has power going to it.

You need to remove the white wire from the fuse box and connect it to the + terminal on the flasher switch, then make sure you have your red and black power wires to the flasher switch as shown in the diagram.
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1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650

[ashman40]

The E-Flasher switch is rather hard to describe in words alone. I usually find a diagram helps a lot. This is from Speedy Jim's site:

From your description it sounds like the PO skipped the power source wiring thru the E-flasher switch and went directly to the fuse box (ignition switched power). This means your flasher relay is powered when ever the ignition switch is ON but until the turn signals or E-flasher switch are turned ON there is no path to ground so the circuit sits idle. When you use your turn signals or turn the E-Flasher switch ON you open a path to the corner lamps and the flasher relay and lights start to flash.
Unfortunately just moving the power source for the flasher relay to a constant power source on the fuse box won't work. This is where things get a little complicated... (The diagram above doesn't show this since it lacks the turn indicator lamp wiring) When the ignition switch is ON there is power from the fuse box to the turn indicator in the speedo. That power is looking for a path to ground but runs headlong into power coming from the flasher relay. The current stops flowing and the turn indicator lamp remains OFF even though there is 12 volts at the bulb. Neither the flasher relay nor the indicator lamp can turn ON. When the ignition is OFF but there is power to the flasher relay (normally because the E-Flasher switch is ON) there is no power coming from the fuse box to the speedo indicator lamp. Current from the flasher relay flow thru the indicator lamp and finds ground elsewhere in the non-powered ignition circuit. The indicator lamp in the speedo flashes along with the corner lamps (the E-flasher switch opens a path to all four corner lamps when ON).

The only reason I can think of for the PO to do this is the E-Flasher switch is bad and does not properly route the #15 or #30 power sources to the output (+ or 49) terminal. Or, the PO didn't know what they were doing and tried to simplify the circuit not realizing they were breaking the E-Flasher function.
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AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}

[kd69bug]

On my '69, as in the diagram for the OP's '72, the white wire connects to "+".
I have unused terminals on my switch, but none are marked "+".
All other wiring to the switch matches the diagram. I'm not sure which unused terminal to connect the white wire to...?

[ashman40]

[kd69bug]

Looks like 54 and ???

Everything worked before I removed the padded dash, now everything works EXCEPT 4-way flashers and turn signals. I tried the white wire on each open terminal on the switch but no luck. Fuses are ok.

[ashman40]

That pic is not very helpful. Can't read the terminal#s.

Does your switch look like this:

I believe this is a Bus E-Flasher switch. Or a switch that can be used for Beetles and/or Buses. The #54 and #54f terminals on that switch are not used on Beetles, but are used on Buses. The remainder of terminals should be the ones shown for Beetles and should function the same.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}

[kd69bug]

Similar. Based on your pic, my white wire would go adjacent to the 15, which is where I have it. So I think it's wired correctly. Before I took everything out to remove the padded dash, everything worked perfectly. Not sure what happened...

[ashman40]

If you have an ohm meter or continuity tester.....

Remove all wires from the #15, #30 and + terminals of the E-Flasher switch.

When the E-Flasher switch is OFF : #15 terminal and + terminal are shorted together.

When the E-Flasher switch is ON : #30 terminal and + terminal are shorted together.

_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}

[kd69bug]

Here is where I'm at with this as of now:

Replaced 4-way flasher switch
Replaced headlight switch

All lights, flashers, signals now work, front and rear, except...

Headlights do not work.

Checked fuse-ok
Yellow wires are connected ok

EVERYTHING worked before I disassembled to remove dash padding.

[Jimbug57]

Does the dimmer relay click when you switch the high beam back and forth?
_________________
Repeat after me "I am smarter than metal!"

[kd69bug]

[Jimbug57]

[kd69bug]

[rayjay]

I believe VW used the HL switch as a junction block. Check continuity between the three 30s on the old switch. They probably will have continuity at all times no matter what position the switch is in. If this is the case then what you did with the 30s should work fine.

Did you test the HL relay ? First I would make sure it's wired correctly. Then make sure the HL grounds are in good shape.

There are several yt vids on how relays work which is good knowledge to have. The VW relays are "latching relays'' which means the internal switch gets moved from high to low and back to high by the momentary application of 12v to two terminals. Most relays are putting power out of one terminal and when you apply 12v to the electro magnet coil it switches the hi amp juice to a second terminal. When the 12v to the EM is turned off the relay automatically switches back.

Having a good grasp how all this works really makes troubleshooting a lot less of a headache. With yt learning it all is pretty simple.

[kd69bug]

[ashman40]

[kd69bug]