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bobbyblack 
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Location: United States, Iowa
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 Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:31 am Post subject: Lifter removal, is there another trick to try? [RESOLVED] |
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I got my old removable (and leaking) collapsible tubes replaced. In the process I peeked in at the lifters' faces. One has a mangled "paperclip" that seems to be holding it at only three points. I thought I would slide that one out, and maybe grab one from the kids' toasted 2.1, but it seems that the lifter only comes half way out of the bore, where it seems to stop somehow. I don't see a wear ring, but its such a tight tolerance in that portion of the engine, that I probably could not observe it, if so.
I thought better of trying to horse it, in case I really would mess the whole thing up by busting that bent paperclip and the whole lifter would bust apart with no way to remove it. Perhaps I overlooked some trick to get the lifter out? As I have been reading a lot on how to remove them, it seems to be a simple thing. Just wanted a reality check.
I think that the paperclip might hold, perhaps. I intended to gap them all to .006 and then run through a heat cycle, then zero lash/heat cycle, then 1.5 ~ 2 turns in after another heat cycle. But, with this bent paperclip, perhaps I should get some better advice. I'm planning to go zero lash instead of .006, to keep pressure on that lifter now.
Thanks,
-bobby
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'87 Westy 'Flossie','86 Westy 'R1','86 tintop GL - Subi2.2 'J2','83.5 stock tintop L 'ZoomBus','74 Karmann Ghia, '63 Notch
Last edited by bobbyblack on Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:59 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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DanHoug
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:40 am Post subject: Re: Lifter removal, is there another trick to try? |
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i'd say you absolutely need to get that lifter out. those clips DO pop off and it will cause you headaches.
first try pulling the lifter out with a neodymium magnet glued on the end of a stick. see if you can spin it in the bore as it is coming out. even heat up the bore a little with a propane torch or heat gun. jam it back and forth with the magnet stick and i bet it'll come out.
-dan |
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?Waldo?
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:02 pm Post subject: Re: Lifter removal, is there another trick to try? |
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| A bit of displaced metal will sometimes form on the edge of the cam contact surface and make them hard to remove. Installing a used lifter is a bad idea. You need to cross your fingers and offer a sacrifice to the VW gods just to install a new one and not have it wear in funny with a used cam. The flat fours have more lifter/cam wear issues than most because they run two lifters per cam lobe. Introducing one that has worn in with a different cam/lifter is just asking for trouble. |
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bobbyblack
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:05 pm Post subject: Re: Lifter removal, is there another trick to try? |
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Dan,
Thanks. I'm back to the chicken and egg on this one, and here is why... Heating the inside of a circle of metal will actually decrease the diameter. I get the idea of heating up something in a larger perspective, but in terms of heating just a portion, this may be the opposite, if I understand the physics as I was taught.
Maybe I can freeze just the lifter outer carrier somehow. It would be pretty involved.
Next question: Does aluminum expand at a higher rate than steel? Perhaps the steel outer case of the lifter would not grow as much as the case if I heated it up in another way? Lets say 6 500W halogen shop lamps under it?
-bobby
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'87 Westy 'Flossie','86 Westy 'R1','86 tintop GL - Subi2.2 'J2','83.5 stock tintop L 'ZoomBus','74 Karmann Ghia, '63 Notch |
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9.5isCanadian
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:12 pm Post subject: Re: Lifter removal, is there another trick to try? |
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| bobbyblack wrote: |
Dan,
Next question: Does aluminum expand at a higher rate than steel?
-bobby |
Yes
Approximately twice as much for equal temperature exposure
9 1/2
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9 1/2 - missing a few pieces.
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DanHoug
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Location: Bemidji, MN
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:28 pm Post subject: Re: Lifter removal, is there another trick to try? |
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| bobbyblack wrote: |
Dan,
Heating the inside of a circle of metal will actually decrease the diameter. I get the idea of heating up something in a larger perspective, but in terms of heating just a portion, this may be the opposite, if I understand the physics as I was taught.
-bobby |
mmmm.... empiric experience would dictate otherwise. i heat aluminum housings up in order to drop in steel bearings. works the same whether it is a transmission carrier, a motorcycle axle hub receiving a bearing, or a lifter bore. i keep an electric fry pan in my shop for the specific purpose of heating up a bearing, a 'circle of metal', who's inner bore will slip onto a solid shaft. well, the pan heats bearings and cooks venison scraps.
-dan
Last edited by DanHoug on Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:37 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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bobbyblack
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:30 pm Post subject: Re: Lifter removal, is there another trick to try? |
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| ?Waldo? wrote: |
A bit of displaced metal will sometimes form on the edge of the cam contact surface and make them hard to remove.
...
Introducing one that has worn in with a different cam/lifter is just asking for trouble. |
Thinking this over, I agree. Thanks ?Waldo?
So, as 9 1/2 suggests the aluminum will outgrow the steel, I will heat it up and see if I can slide it out using a magnet.
Otherwise, I am thinking I might be able to get in there and pull the bad clip, holding the guts in with a spare push rod, or similar... This would be micro surgery, and a high probability of overall failure. I will have to see what kind of room I can achieve and how tight a fit getting a hemostats to be useful in there would be. Betting I can get it out, but the replacement would be damn difficult to snap in. I guess I have a couple of bad blocks to test the theory out on.
I have a hunch Chris/tencentlife/Vanistan has seen this, and will waive me off doing something idiotic.
-bobby
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'87 Westy 'Flossie','86 Westy 'R1','86 tintop GL - Subi2.2 'J2','83.5 stock tintop L 'ZoomBus','74 Karmann Ghia, '63 Notch |
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djkeev
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IdahoDoug
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:09 pm Post subject: Re: Lifter removal, is there another trick to try? |
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Just pull it and replace the retainer ring. Do not try putting a new one in there. The ring of his from oil grunge
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djkeev
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bobbyblack
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:33 pm Post subject: Re: Lifter removal, is there another trick to try? |
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I will see if a good soaking of carb cleaner helps.
As for the location at which the build up would be occurring, I am curious: would it just be at the outer edge, where I can 'see' or is it possible that there is a ridge of buildup or deformation at the other end of the lifter that might cause this? I don't have a very good visual idea of how that lifter sits on the cam, but I imagine it riding inside of the bore towards the cam, in my mental picture.
Thanks,
-bobby
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'87 Westy 'Flossie','86 Westy 'R1','86 tintop GL - Subi2.2 'J2','83.5 stock tintop L 'ZoomBus','74 Karmann Ghia, '63 Notch |
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bobbyblack
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:29 pm Post subject: Re: Lifter removal, is there another trick to try? (Got it out) |
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Sprayed with carb cleaner, heated from underside with 6 500W halogen shop lamps for 2 hours, and was able to pull it out.
This has been apart before. This means I have 7 more to do, I guess.
Broke this:
Cam side:
Now its obvious there is more to do:
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'87 Westy 'Flossie','86 Westy 'R1','86 tintop GL - Subi2.2 'J2','83.5 stock tintop L 'ZoomBus','74 Karmann Ghia, '63 Notch
Last edited by bobbyblack on Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:56 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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?Waldo?
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:47 pm Post subject: Re: Lifter removal, is there another trick to try? |
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| You could steal a circlip from one of the used lifters you mentioned earlier, reassemble, and put back in the same hole. |
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bobbyblack
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:04 pm Post subject: Re: Lifter removal, is there another trick to try? |
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?Waldo?,
Good plan, as I've got a week 'til payday, so no ordering parts just now.
Of the other lifters on that head, #2 exhaust seems pretty squishy too. probably a good idea to pull one at a time and steal parts from my kids' blown 2.1 (if they are salvageable) or the 2.1 that came with yet another parts van [AKA the DoubleCheese] and put this back together asap. While its true there was 8 inches of snow here in a storm yesterday, I still want to get this boxer back in the ring asap.
Thanks for all the encouragement!
-bobby
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'87 Westy 'Flossie','86 Westy 'R1','86 tintop GL - Subi2.2 'J2','83.5 stock tintop L 'ZoomBus','74 Karmann Ghia, '63 Notch |
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IdahoDoug
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:36 pm Post subject: Re: Lifter removal, is there another trick to try? [got it out] |
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Bobby,
I sent my comment from my cell but will elaborate. Don't take lifters from another engine and replace them into your engine. These parts mate themselves to the specific cam lobe and its not a good idea to put non matching parts together to have them wear themselves yet again. Simply replace the damaged wire clip from another used lifter if damaged and replace the lifter in the same hole you found it. Don't worry about the "soft" feeling lifters. They'll all feel like that depending on where in the cam stroke the engine stopped and how long its been stopped, etc. Don't pull all the lifters if they're working and create a lot of work for yourself.
Doug
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1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader |
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djkeev
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bobbyblack
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| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:25 am Post subject: Re: Lifter removal, is there another trick to try? [got it out] |
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Ok, from the amalgam I've made of the advice given, here is my direction: Since I have only pulled the one, I will only work on that one for now. I will tear open the 2.1 the kids blew, maybe starting with the worst bit I saw: Bent Push Rod Tube, indicating bent push rod, probable busted valve, or seized valve/guide. Perhaps that lifter has a useful clip, and that is all I will take to put my lifter back together. I guess I will grab the washer for the rocker shaft too.
I will soak the parts in lacquer thinner for a while, and clean them up as best I can before assembly.
Thanks all!
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'87 Westy 'Flossie','86 Westy 'R1','86 tintop GL - Subi2.2 'J2','83.5 stock tintop L 'ZoomBus','74 Karmann Ghia, '63 Notch |
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?Waldo?
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| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:09 am Post subject: Re: Lifter removal, is there another trick to try? [got it out] |
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| That's a good plan. |
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djkeev
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bobbyblack
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| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:25 am Post subject: Re: Lifter removal, is there another trick to try? [got it out] |
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Regarding that reassembly process, Dave:
Why do people use a 'pour-in-2/3-oil' then ... Can't I just put enough oil in a pan/pot/jar and assemble them submerged? Same process of pushing in the relief ball to allow piston down, but if its submerged, then there would be no way ANY air could be in there. Had that idea while reading ChrisToph3rs' writeup.
Maybe its to save oil? I do see how using half a quart for the project could be wasteful, unless you have a outdoor boiler dual wood/fuel oil, like me.
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