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boom10ful
Samba Member
Joined: January 10, 2017
Posts: 158
Location: United States
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 Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:57 pm Post subject: Any Tips on Replacing a Cylinder Head? |
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So I just got another Beetle and this thing is awesome! Everything is mostly stock on it and has many hard to find Volkswagen parts that get lost over the years.
I tried replacing the spark plugs and only got 3 out of 4 in. One of them (#1 Cylinder) was wallowed out and the plug would be able to be pulled out. Tried a helicoil in car, but that ended in failure. So now I need to replace the head.
Any tips on doing this? The head that I'm looking at will be a rebuilt Volkswagen head with new valves and springs I think. Do I need to do anything with the head such as sending it to a machine shop? Does it need head gasket(s). Do I need to buy new studs or nuts?
EDIT: Also, I'm not sure what engine I have in the car. The PO said it was a 1600 and the jugs appear to have been removed at some point, but the block number states that it's a 1500 (H5) but says (H5A below the long numbers). Does this matter or is a 1600 head universal?
I might try and see if the head can be saved by a machine shop. I'll ask if a timesert is still possible. |
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VW_Jimbo 
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2016
Posts: 9950
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:16 pm Post subject: Re: Any Tips on Replacing a Cylinder Head? |
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Its all possible! 1st, how many miles on that engine? If there are over 75000, you might want to rebuild the engine. The time and money to remove and replace heads, is half the job of rebuilding an entire engine. If I was going to commit that amount of time and energy, I would want to know that I was not going to have to do it again, soon. Also, if you rebuild the top end on a worn engine, the bottom end dies fairly shortly after that.
You can replace just the one head, if thats what you need to do. Easy stuff to do. Trickyest part is being sure the barrels stay in place when dislodging the head from them. I have a steel tool, which I fabricated, which slides down between the cooling fins and bolts to the case bolts.
Pop the valve cover, pull the rocker arm assembly (2 8mm nuts), pull the push rods, pull the fan housing, pull the cylinder tins, remove the eight head nuts, making sure you do not remove the studs during the process (soak them in PB blaster), pull the 8 washers and gently, while wiggling, pull the head off. DO NOT use a tool of any kind to pry the head off. You will break a cooling fin off of the barrels (not good).
Clean everything up super clean. Simple Green works great!
When you get the head off. Look down in the cylinder, at the top of the piston. If you see 85.5 stamped in the top, you have a 1600! Thats the easiest test for that. Or you can measure the interior diameter of the cylinder. If the piston says 83, you have a 1500. |
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boom10ful
Samba Member
Joined: January 10, 2017
Posts: 158
Location: United States
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:44 pm Post subject: Re: Any Tips on Replacing a Cylinder Head? |
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| VW_Jimbo wrote: |
Its all possible! 1st, how many miles on that engine? If there are over 75000, you might want to rebuild the engine. The time and money to remove and replace heads, is half the job of rebuilding an entire engine. If I was going to commit that amount of time and energy, I would want to know that I was not going to have to do it again, soon. Also, if you rebuild the top end on a worn engine, the bottom end dies fairly shortly after that.
You can replace just the one head, if thats what you need to do. Easy stuff to do. Trickyest part is being sure the barrels stay in place when dislodging the head from them. I have a steel tool, which I fabricated, which slides down between the cooling fins and bolts to the case bolts.
Pop the valve cover, pull the rocker arm assembly (2 8mm nuts), pull the push rods, pull the fan housing, pull the cylinder tins, remove the eight head nuts, making sure you do not remove the studs during the process (soak them in PB blaster), pull the 8 washers and gently, while wiggling, pull the head off. DO NOT use a tool of any kind to pry the head off. You will break a cooling fin off of the barrels (not good).
Clean everything up super clean. Simple Green works great!
When you get the head off. Look down in the cylinder, at the top of the piston. If you see 85.5 stamped in the top, you have a 1600! Thats the easiest test for that. Or you can measure the interior diameter of the cylinder. If the piston says 83, you have a 1500. |
Thanks! Unfortunately, our current funds only allow us to replace the cylinder head if necessary. Rebuilding or replacing the motor is out of the question for now. It ran strong while we had it for 2 weeks now though.
Thanks for the tip about the studs and about the numbers on the pistons. I'll be sure to soak them in a penetrating lube.
The car only says that it has 2800 miles on it, but the odometer could have rolled over or have been adjusted. I know for sure that it has been rebuilt once since I saw some Permatex Red on the cylinders while I was changing the oil.
I'll update you all to see what I find on Saturday. |
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Cusser
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 31360
Location: Hot Arizona
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:54 am Post subject: Re: Any Tips on Replacing a Cylinder Head? |
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| boom10ful wrote: |
I tried replacing the spark plugs and only got 3 out of 4 in. One of them (#1 Cylinder) was wallowed out and the plug would be able to be pulled out. Tried a helicoil in car, but that ended in failure. So now I need to replace the head.
I might try and see if the head can be saved by a machine shop. I'll ask if a timesert is still possible. |
On my 1835cc engine, I used a solid threaded insert to repair a poorly-installed helicoil that had been done by a shop. I did not drop the engine to do this either. It's been like this for maybe 6 years now. I did not use a TimeSert though, mine used ordinary tools.
TimeSerts are considered the best of the solid threaded inserts, and there are oversize ones, see aircooled.net who also rents the specialized tools.
_________________
1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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bluebus86
Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010
Posts: 11075
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:29 am Post subject: Re: Any Tips on Replacing a Cylinder Head? |
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| boom10ful wrote: |
So I just got another Beetle and this thing is awesome! Everything is mostly stock on it and has many hard to find Volkswagen parts that get lost over the years.
I tried replacing the spark plugs and only got 3 out of 4 in. One of them (#1 Cylinder) was wallowed out and the plug would be able to be pulled out. Tried a helicoil in car, but that ended in failure. So now I need to replace the head.
Any tips on doing this? The head that I'm looking at will be a rebuilt Volkswagen head with new valves and springs I think. Do I need to do anything with the head such as sending it to a machine shop? Does it need head gasket(s). Do I need to buy new studs or nuts?
EDIT: Also, I'm not sure what engine I have in the car. The PO said it was a 1600 and the jugs appear to have been removed at some point, but the block number states that it's a 1500 (H5) but says (H5A below the long numbers). Does this matter or is a 1600 head universal?
I might try and see if the head can be saved by a machine shop. I'll ask if a timesert is still possible. |
I found Helicoils to fail in the spark plug application also. There are inserts called Timeserts as mentioned above, and also generic spark plug hole saver inserts.
With careful work, these can be installed with motor assembled. No reason to replace a head for a stripped spark plug hole. The inserts are cheap, the install kit can be a bit pricey so see if you can borrow one, but even if you buy, it is cheaper than a new head. You could always sell it off when done, or use it if the other plug hole fails.
Search the world wide interweb for "sparkplug hole repair"
many parts stores carry this stuff.
Just be aware that the prior helicoil repair might have opened up the hole too big for some inserts, but I recall one time I used an insert to repair a previously helicoiled head on my Bug.
You can drive in the mean time by placing the spark plug back in, but leave the wire off the plug, run on 3 cylinders as needed. if the plug stays in, it wont make a lot of nose, if plug falls out, it will be loud, by leaving off the spark wire you greatly reduce the pressure that would tend to force the loose plug out.
Bug On! Keep Buggin on three!
_________________
Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
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bnam
Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2006
Posts: 2935
Location: El Dorado Hills CA/ Bangalore, India
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:11 pm Post subject: Re: Any Tips on Replacing a Cylinder Head? |
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I used Timesert to repair the spark plug thread on the head on my '71
_________________
1971 1302LS Convertible (RHD) owned since '74
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1965 Karmann Ghia Coupe - under restoration
1966 Fiat 1500 Cabrio (with 1600 Twin cam)
1952 Citroen TA 11BL |
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boom10ful
Samba Member
Joined: January 10, 2017
Posts: 158
Location: United States
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:25 pm Post subject: Re: Any Tips on Replacing a Cylinder Head? |
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| Looks like I ran into a small problem. Before I take the head off, I read that I should check the torque on the head bolts first. Looks like one cylinder has 10mm studs and the other one has 8mm studs. Do I torque the 8mm studs to 18 ft pounds and the 10mm studs to 22 ft pounds or do I torque them all the same? |
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VW_Jimbo
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Joined: May 22, 2016
Posts: 9950
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:03 pm Post subject: Re: Any Tips on Replacing a Cylinder Head? |
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All the studs should be the same, unless someone did a shotty stud repair. Back in the day, if you stripped out an 8mm stud, you would cut a cutting slot on the threaded end of a 10mm stud and twist it into the case. Was never a permanent repair, but would get you a few more miles.
If I were in your shoes, I would rebuild the engine. I get that you are not, so long to short. In your case I would treat it like an 8mm stud and know I am on borrowed time!
Good luck!
_________________
Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
| TDCTDI wrote: |
| Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
| 67rustavenger wrote: |
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo!  |
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boom10ful
Samba Member
Joined: January 10, 2017
Posts: 158
Location: United States
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:05 pm Post subject: Re: Any Tips on Replacing a Cylinder Head? |
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| VW_Jimbo wrote: |
All the studs should be the same, unless someone did a shotty stud repair. Back in the day, if you stripped out an 8mm stud, you would cut a cutting slot on the threaded end of a 10mm stud and twist it into the case. Was never a permanent repair, but would get you a few more miles.
If I were in your shoes, I would rebuild the engine. I get that you are not, so long to short. In your case I would treat it like an 8mm stud and know I am on borrowed time!
Good luck! |
Yeah, this engine is a bit tired lol, but at least the cylinders still have the crosshatches. Looks like I forgot how to use a caliper and all measure .032" which is 8mm. Good thing that I didn't bother cranking the engine because the helicoil ended up falling inside the cylinder! I'll just repair the head for now, replace most of the seals (some are leaking) and rebuild when the engine fails. It's going to be a town car anyway. Previous owner left all the exhaust bolts loose and I removed them by hand. |
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FeelthySanchez
Samba Member
Joined: February 03, 2011
Posts: 1349
Location: Now is that a real poncho, or a Sears poncho?
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:45 pm Post subject: Re: Any Tips on Replacing a Cylinder Head? |
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Sorry to hear this latest twist of fate.
It cannot be a good sign for the overall health of this engine:
| boom10ful wrote: |
Previous owner left all the exhaust bolts loose and I removed them by hand.
Looks like one cylinder has 10mm studs and the other one has 8mm studs. |
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| modok wrote: |
| I would like if you had enough clue to communicate what you are doing. |
| Ryan Tucker wrote: |
| Enough clue..Whats that mean? |
| OldIronSpine wrote: |
I'm not sure how compression works.
Turbos don't produce torque, they produce HP. Instead of torque.
The real problem with NA engines is you don't hear the nice whine of the turbo as it spools up.
Before I commit, I'm going to do more research because I don't really know what piston rings are. |
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Buggeee
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heimlich
VWNOS.com
Joined: November 20, 2016
Posts: 6593
Location: Houston, Texas
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:16 pm Post subject: Re: Any Tips on Replacing a Cylinder Head? |
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Just beware that you may go to pull the head and find something else wrong. On a car foreign to you be prepared for anything.
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boom10ful
Samba Member
Joined: January 10, 2017
Posts: 158
Location: United States
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 10:30 pm Post subject: Re: Any Tips on Replacing a Cylinder Head? |
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| The spark plug hole has now been repaired. Cost me $20 at a machine shop. I'm going to replace some of the seals since I'm here already and just drive it till it dies. Everything else looks good aside from some out of spec torque values on that head. I'll be re-torquing the other head before I install the motor. Will update when it's running. |
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boom10ful
Samba Member
Joined: January 10, 2017
Posts: 158
Location: United States
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2018 8:11 pm Post subject: Re: Any Tips on Replacing a Cylinder Head? |
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| Ok, so I was installing the cylinder head and noted how tight it was to slip onto the cylinders. Is that normal? I could only get it started a little bit and then torqued the nuts to 7ft lbs to install it in all the way. Also the short side of the push rod tubes goes into the head right? |
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FeelthySanchez
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Joined: February 03, 2011
Posts: 1349
Location: Now is that a real poncho, or a Sears poncho?
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2018 8:19 pm Post subject: Re: Any Tips on Replacing a Cylinder Head? |
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Dodgy cylinder-to-head fit happens occasionally due to tolerance stack-up. Usually nothing to sweat, & swapping-around the cyls may help.
Correct on the PR tubes: the longer (case) end will actually stand there & stay put in it's bore.
_________________
| modok wrote: |
| I would like if you had enough clue to communicate what you are doing. |
| Ryan Tucker wrote: |
| Enough clue..Whats that mean? |
| OldIronSpine wrote: |
I'm not sure how compression works.
Turbos don't produce torque, they produce HP. Instead of torque.
The real problem with NA engines is you don't hear the nice whine of the turbo as it spools up.
Before I commit, I'm going to do more research because I don't really know what piston rings are. |
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boom10ful
Samba Member
Joined: January 10, 2017
Posts: 158
Location: United States
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2018 9:51 pm Post subject: Re: Any Tips on Replacing a Cylinder Head? |
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| FeelthySanchez wrote: |
Dodgy cylinder-to-head fit happens occasionally due to tolerance stack-up. Usually nothing to sweat, & swapping-around the cyls may help.
Correct on the PR tubes: the longer (case) end will actually stand there & stay put in it's bore. |
Thanks! Can't wait for this engine to fire up again! |
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boom10ful
Samba Member
Joined: January 10, 2017
Posts: 158
Location: United States
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 5:58 pm Post subject: Re: Any Tips on Replacing a Cylinder Head? |
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Oh boy, I've got a new problem now. I've put on the head and now I can't adjust the valves. They were perfect before and I adjusted them a week and 10 miles before taking down the motor.
I was able to adjust cylinder 1, but the others were so tight that I couldn't move the rockers. I did make sure to have everything at TDC by checking the notch in the distributor and by checking with a screwdriver inserted at the spark plug hole. Cylinder 4 cannot even be adjusted, I've unscrewed the adjusting screw and the rocker arm won't even move. That's not even the head that I removed. What could be wrong? |
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VW_Jimbo
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Joined: May 22, 2016
Posts: 9950
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 10:17 pm Post subject: Re: Any Tips on Replacing a Cylinder Head? |
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| boom10ful wrote: |
Oh boy, I've got a new problem now. I've put on the head and now I can't adjust the valves. They were perfect before and I adjusted them a week and 10 miles before taking down the motor.
I was able to adjust cylinder 1, but the others were so tight that I couldn't move the rockers. I did make sure to have everything at TDC by checking the notch in the distributor and by checking with a screwdriver inserted at the spark plug hole. Cylinder 4 cannot even be adjusted, I've unscrewed the adjusting screw and the rocker arm won't even move. That's not even the head that I removed. What could be wrong? |
Sounds like you have too many barrel shims. Something has reduced the lenght between the case and the head, causing the pushrod to protrude more into the head, thus forcing the arm to stay engaged with the valve. You can try to find what has changed, and if you do not find it, you could get some, cut to lenght push rods and set up the geometry and cut your own pushrods. I just got done doing that!
_________________
Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
| TDCTDI wrote: |
| Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
| 67rustavenger wrote: |
| GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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boom10ful
Samba Member
Joined: January 10, 2017
Posts: 158
Location: United States
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 10:27 pm Post subject: Re: Any Tips on Replacing a Cylinder Head? |
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| VW_Jimbo wrote: |
| boom10ful wrote: |
Oh boy, I've got a new problem now. I've put on the head and now I can't adjust the valves. They were perfect before and I adjusted them a week and 10 miles before taking down the motor.
I was able to adjust cylinder 1, but the others were so tight that I couldn't move the rockers. I did make sure to have everything at TDC by checking the notch in the distributor and by checking with a screwdriver inserted at the spark plug hole. Cylinder 4 cannot even be adjusted, I've unscrewed the adjusting screw and the rocker arm won't even move. That's not even the head that I removed. What could be wrong? |
Sounds like you have too many barrel shims. Something has reduced the lenght between the case and the head, causing the pushrod to protrude more into the head, thus forcing the arm to stay engaged with the valve. You can try to find what has changed, and if you do not find it, you could get some, cut to lenght push rods and set up the geometry and cut your own pushrods. I just got done doing that! |
I didn't see any shims on the head nor on the cylinder barrels where the head mates to, but I'll check again. I did get the push rods mixed up on the head that I took out so I'll double check to see if they are all equal lengths. Maybe mixing that side messed with the other side as well. Didn't know that they could be different lengths, TIL!.  |
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boom10ful
Samba Member
Joined: January 10, 2017
Posts: 158
Location: United States
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2018 8:24 am Post subject: Re: Any Tips on Replacing a Cylinder Head? |
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| Was thinking about this problem all night. There were some washers along with the nuts for the rocker arm. I put them after installing the rocker arm assembly but can someone confirm if the washers go UNDER the rocker arm assembly? |
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