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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21519
Location: Oklahoma City
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 Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:56 pm Post subject: Re: Adjusting hydraulic lifters after a rebuild |
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| 69BahamaYellow wrote: |
I live in TX and have always run thick oils, because of the heat and because the oils that have ZDDP in sufficient quantities for flat lifter cams are usually a thicker racing oil. Or, you have to add a thick ZDDP additive to conventional oils. My hydraulic lifters would often bleed down with this stuff (sometimes just overnight), but they always pump back up within seconds after restarting.
I recently switched over to straight Shell Rotella T6 5W-40, with no extra ZDDP additives, and my lifters don't bleed down anymore. I've only got about 1000 miles experience with it now, so I'm not gonna say 100% that it's completely because of the oil, but it's promising.
I fully disassembled my lifters, cleaned, and refilled them with the Rotella T6 oil, during the bench bleed process, so I guess it's also possible they were just dirty before, and that's what caused them to bleed down.
Even if the Hydro's do bleed down occasionally, they eliminate the need to do periodic valve adjustments. Enough said. |
I lived in Texas from 1995 to 2008. Drove air cooled 90% of the time.....Texas, Oklahoma, Lousinana, New Mexico, Kansas,.....typically well over 1000 miles per week easy.
I agree and would say that I also think the straight 40, 15W-40 and occasionally 5-40....in my experience....is jist about the perfect oil weight for high speed, very hot weather driving with type 4 engines.
Dallas and Houston....in-city pavement temps were tracked....and still are...by the national weather service. Typically when the temperature inversion comes.....and it does every summer....once the city has been over 100°F for at least a week.....and it gets heat saturated.....pavement temps are close to 150°F and air temps upward to 2' up are 130° to 140°. Its common to see ambient temps well over 100° once the temp inversion hits.....for upwards to 30 days in a row. Temps do not drop below 100°F in the city until after midnight.
Dawn breaks at 85-90°.
In my experience.....20-50 ran consistently hotter. Some was by-pass...some was just the engine working harder to pump through that oil.
Its just me I guess....but valve adjustments take me upwards to 15 minutes at most. Just matk the fan where each adjusting point is and watch the distributor rotor. Use a go/no-go feeler gauge set......easy!.....and they are far easier with the clearance of a bus than any other VW.....so not having to do valve adjustments has never been a big draw for me. Ray |
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SGKent 
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:32 pm Post subject: Re: Adjusting hydraulic lifters after a rebuild |
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Ray - As I recall you own 411's and 412's. That said, factor humidity into density altitude.
Oklahoma City is 1200' ASL. With an air temp of 95F and a humidity of about 80% the relative density is that of about 5,000 - 6000'. Can't compare that to 5% humidity, 105F, and sea level. VW engines don't overheat at that altitude due to loss of compression.
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50348
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:58 pm Post subject: Re: Adjusting hydraulic lifters after a rebuild |
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| SGKent wrote: |
Go argue with VW. Here is the 1979 manual. That is hydraulic isn't it?
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Well I would certainly agree with VW that the 20w50 oils of that era were not suitable for use in a VW aircooled engine except during coolish spring time temperatures, but that doesn't have anything to do with running a modern synthetic oil with a high viscosity index.  |
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69BahamaYellow
Samba Member
Joined: April 22, 2011
Posts: 537
Location: Talbott, TN
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 5:52 am Post subject: Re: Adjusting hydraulic lifters after a rebuild |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| Its just me I guess....but valve adjustments take me upwards to 15 minutes at most. |
I'm proud to say it takes me much longer....cause I don't have to adjust mine any more 
Joking aside, hydraulic lifters are one of the best things VW ever did for their air cooled passenger vehicles. That's just my humble opinion.
Still can't wrap my head around why the hydro's seem to not bleed down as easy with the thinner oil vs the thick stuff. You'd think it would be just the opposite.
This will sound weird also, but in all my experience bench bleeding hydro's, before assembly and adjustment, I've used either SAE30 or 20W-50 oils, and a couple of them will have already bled down a little within the few hour span between bleed - install - adjust. Which is why you have to learn to adjust them with only the "feel" of just taking up all the slack against the little spring inside the lifter When I did my most recent engine build and bench bled the lifters with Rotella T6, then installed, they stayed rock solid for over a week before I could adjust. That's laying down sideways with no pushrods to trap the oil from coming out. You'd think nearly all of them would have bled down, but they didn't.... It is probably just coincidence, but I'd be curious to know if others have noticed such things with the thin vs thick oils. It's easy to fool yourself into thinking something is true if you don't have enough data to prove otherwise... |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21519
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 8:56 am Post subject: Re: Adjusting hydraulic lifters after a rebuild |
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| SGKent wrote: |
Ray - As I recall you own 411's and 412's. That said, factor humidity into density altitude.
Oklahoma City is 1200' ASL. With an air temp of 95F and a humidity of about 80% the relative density is that of about 5,000 - 6000'. Can't compare that to 5% humidity, 105F, and sea level. VW engines don't overheat at that altitude due to loss of compression. |
Who said anything about Oklahona city?
I covered 13 states in my East coast region and 7 in the Western statea. In my 411 and my 71 bus and my 412.
Never assume anyones coverage by their Samba listing. I'm not offically from anywhere.
Extensive driving in the blue ridge and shenandoah, new Mexico, west Texas, Nebraska into Colorado. Arizona.
There is no weather in California...anywhere....that is any worse than you can experience in other places. 5% humidity at 115 is common in West texas....and it aint sea level. Neither is 7000 feet in New Mexico at 110 F.
With a car loaded down with about 700 lbs of equipment.....and driving 70 mph in those places and many more.....and doing it well.....I still see no advantage one way or the other to hydro lifters whatsover. Ray |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 9:32 am Post subject: Re: Adjusting hydraulic lifters after a rebuild |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| SGKent wrote: |
Ray - As I recall you own 411's and 412's. That said, factor humidity into density altitude.
Oklahoma City is 1200' ASL. With an air temp of 95F and a humidity of about 80% the relative density is that of about 5,000 - 6000'. Can't compare that to 5% humidity, 105F, and sea level. VW engines don't overheat at that altitude due to loss of compression. |
Who said anything about Oklahona city?
I covered 13 states in my East coast region and 7 in the Western statea. In my 411 and my 71 bus and my 412.
Never assume anyones coverage by their Samba listing. I'm not offically from anywhere.
Extensive driving in the blue ridge and shenandoah, new Mexico, west Texas, Nebraska into Colorado. Arizona.
There is no weather in California...anywhere....that is any worse than you can experience in other places. 5% humidity at 115 is common in West texas....and it aint sea level. Neither is 7000 feet in New Mexico at 110 F.
With a car loaded down with about 700 lbs of equipment.....and driving 70 mph in those places and many more.....and doing it well.....I still see no advantage one way or the other to hydro lifters whatsover. Ray |
| Quote: |
| Texas, Oklahoma, Lousinana, New Mexico, Kansas |
I don't assume anything about you Ray. Its just that I have lived, and driven a bus all over the USA. I know how the head and oil temps behave in different places.
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21519
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 10:07 am Post subject: Re: Adjusting hydraulic lifters after a rebuild |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
| SGKent wrote: |
Ray - As I recall you own 411's and 412's. That said, factor humidity into density altitude.
Oklahoma City is 1200' ASL. With an air temp of 95F and a humidity of about 80% the relative density is that of about 5,000 - 6000'. Can't compare that to 5% humidity, 105F, and sea level. VW engines don't overheat at that altitude due to loss of compression. |
Who said anything about Oklahona city?
I covered 13 states in my East coast region and 7 in the Western statea. In my 411 and my 71 bus and my 412.
Never assume anyones coverage by their Samba listing. I'm not offically from anywhere.
Extensive driving in the blue ridge and shenandoah, new Mexico, west Texas, Nebraska into Colorado. Arizona.
There is no weather in California...anywhere....that is any worse than you can experience in other places. 5% humidity at 115 is common in West texas....and it aint sea level. Neither is 7000 feet in New Mexico at 110 F.
With a car loaded down with about 700 lbs of equipment.....and driving 70 mph in those places and many more.....and doing it well.....I still see no advantage one way or the other to hydro lifters whatsover. Ray |
| Quote: |
| Texas, Oklahoma, Lousinana, New Mexico, Kansas |
I don't assume anything about you Ray. Its just that I have lived, and driven a bus all over the USA. I know how the head and oil temps behave in different places. |
I know that you have driven as extensively as I have....and I know also know how head and oil temps behave as well...and...yes...there are differences from altitude and air density....and my point....is still...what does that have to do with hydraulic lifters one way or the other.
Ray |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 10:25 am Post subject: Re: Adjusting hydraulic lifters after a rebuild |
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Mike said the reason people had trouble with hydraulic lifters is that they don't follow his wisdom and advice on oil. You agreed with that. I disagreed. My point is simple - use whichever high quality oil best maintains pressure for the environment the bus is in. I am done with this, it ain't rocket science.
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21519
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 11:07 am Post subject: Re: Adjusting hydraulic lifters after a rebuild |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| Mike said the reason people had trouble with hydraulic lifters is that they don't follow his wisdom and advice on oil. You agreed with that. I disagreed. My point is simple - use whichever high quality oil best maintains pressure for the environment the bus is in. I am done with this, it ain't rocket science. |
Who said anything about rocket science? I just think that hydraulic lifters are a needles complexity for a type 4 in any vehicle.
Who said anything about following anyone's "WISDOM" with regard to oils? I agree that oil performance can be one of the many issues....and probably one of the most common. ONE of the issues.
I think Wildthings is correct about one thing....that 20/50's now are totally different...synthetic or not...than they were 20 years ago.
And....my point about hydraulic lifters...has nothing to do with bleeding down or what oil you use...and you still have not answered the question. I still see "0" benefit from using them unless all you are worried about is not having to adjust the valves nearly as often.
Part of the bleeding down issue...is simply the total oil system design. I mentioned this earlier. All the little bits and pieces used in modern cars where hydraulic lifters/cam followers....are REALLY pretty much a life of the car "forever" marvel....are not in the type 4 engine..even the later tweaked oil system bus cases.
Bluntly put...hydros on type 4 engines are an after thought.
The whole point about agreement with using too thick of an oil being an issue....is that its patently not necessary....and people seem to have a little less problem with the thinner oils.....and its not JUST the oil issue.
Its NEVER just the oil weight issue (bleeding down and adjustment issues)
Its the precision of whatever set of lifters you have....combined with the precision (or imprecision/wear) of the case you have.... the newest bay bus case design is now 39 years old....and the main design of the case you have...which again...outside of the oil system tweaks from the late bus....are pretty much 1968. Thats 50 year old design....and not originally made for hydraulic lifters.
And...add to that...air filters and oil filters are not perfect....and being horizontal...the lifters in a type 4 or even a bug...are prone to gathering any grit or sludge.
All of these things plus whatever level of precision..or imprecision...was put into the build either by the current owner or the last 3 owners....can add to the stack up of variables that can cause one lifter or another to bleed down...or not.
I don't have any issues with lifters bleeding down....ever!
Its perspective. Some owners think of having hydraulic lifters as one less "task" to worry about.
I think of about them as collection of between 64 and 72 parts of lower performance I do not have to worry about.
Ray |
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78westybus
Samba Member
Joined: April 25, 2018
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2018 12:23 am Post subject: Re: Adjusting hydraulic lifters after a rebuild |
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That a simple "how to adjust hydraulic lifters" question ends up in "the oil discussion" and "hydro lifters are evil" is to be expected... Luckily a few answers on topic came in before that.
But I never get how at some point some people always end up being at each other's throats. It sure sets an example of adult behavior in a public forum. This is btw one of the reasons why in all these years of perusing the Samba I've never posted. This is a scary place, not only for newcomers. |
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stwesty
Samba Member
Joined: May 10, 2015
Posts: 128
Location: Vancouver, Canada
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 7:18 pm Post subject: Re: Adjusting hydraulic lifters after a rebuild |
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| Quote: |
What I found out by looking at some different hydraulic lifters is that while they might look the same from the outside, the parts inside do vary in how they are constructed and assembled. That might make the instructions for bleeding the OEM ones either not apply directly.
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Those diagrams are very helpful, thanks. Bentley says to fill them up completely while submerging them in oil. The one diagram of yours says to fill them just up to the hole. That makes much more sense for my lifters.
When I put the socket in, it won't budge at all since there is no way for the oil to escape and the whole point is that the oil is incompressible.
Is that the purpose of the vice? Will that slowly squeeze oil out of the sides of the socket? Mine seemed rock solid and well sealed but I suppose with vice pressure as opposed to the hand pressure mentioned in Bentley it might work.
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1974 Westfalia, automatic, dual-carb |
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furgo
Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2016
Posts: 944
Location: Southern Germany
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2018 3:09 am Post subject: Re: Adjusting hydraulic lifters after a rebuild |
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| stwesty wrote: |
| Those diagrams are very helpful, thanks. Bentley says to fill them up completely while submerging them in oil. The one diagram of yours says to fill them just up to the hole. That makes much more sense for my lifters. |
Glad they could help a bit. Yes, that's what worked for my lifters too.
| stwesty wrote: |
When I put the socket in, it won't budge at all since there is no way for the oil to escape and the whole point is that the oil is incompressible.
Is that the purpose of the vice? Will that slowly squeeze oil out of the sides of the socket? |
Exactly. The socket will protrude a bit. Unless you're Hulk, that's as far as it will go with your fingers. The vise will push it down further and the excess oil will seep out through the bleed/feed hole as you turn the vise. As an added benefit, you can visually see the controlled oil bleeding that happens as the cam lobe (vise grip) and the pushrod try to compress the lifter. It helped me better understand how these things work.
I had some spare hydro lifters and while at it, I documented the procedure yesterday. I hope this helps:
 How to bench bleed hydraulic valve lifters
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'79 Westy, P22 interior, FI 2.0 l Federal, GE engine (hydraulic lifters)
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