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scrivyscriv Samba Electrician
Joined: October 04, 2011 Posts: 2918 Location: Memphis
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Posted: Sat May 05, 2018 6:59 pm Post subject: Re: Alternator Rebuild (long) |
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If you have access to a megger, meg out the stator after you varnish the windings.. the electric shop would have already done that to the rotor, but since you put brake cleaner on the stator I would really recommend double checking that your insulation is still good.
brake cleaner is a lot different than electronic parts cleaner.. you'll notice that the electric cleaner sprays are two or three times as expensive as brake clean.
*edit* also i forgot to ask, where did you get your hardware plated? _________________ Robert in Memphis
Dünkelgrügen 1967 Java Green bug thread
Engine rebuild thread
If you're ever in the Memphis area, you are welcome to stop by for advice and help. |
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7527 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 12:17 pm Post subject: Re: Alternator Rebuild (long) |
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Xevin wrote: |
What’s awesome about Clatter is that he asks questions up in here. I know him and his background. I totally appreciate him doing that in the Forums. The fact he spitballs here makes us better. Lots of knowledge. Like SGKent, Ray, Colin, Robbie, skills, cusser, and so many more. |
You've been drinking again, haven't you!?! _________________ Bus Motor Build
What’s That Noise?!? |
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7527 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 12:24 pm Post subject: Re: Alternator Rebuild (long) |
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scrivyscriv wrote: |
If you have access to a megger, meg out the stator after you varnish the windings.. the electric shop would have already done that to the rotor, but since you put brake cleaner on the stator I would really recommend double checking that your insulation is still good.
brake cleaner is a lot different than electronic parts cleaner.. you'll notice that the electric cleaner sprays are two or three times as expensive as brake clean.
*edit* also i forgot to ask, where did you get your hardware plated? |
Thanks for your input.
The paint on the wires is old/hard enough that the gas/toothbrush, as well as the brake-cleaner, didn't seem to touch it.
Hopefully, it's clean enough that the old paint has some 'tooth' for the new.
BTW, what's a 'megger'? Will a regular meter/VOM work?
The red paint on the OD of the big ring really wanted to fight the wire wheel even after the gas/cleaner, FWIW..
The cad plating is done by a place in Oregon that specializes in aircraft.
Have been really, really happy with their work.
You do have to prep your own parts, however; better prep gets you a better finish.
http://www.precisionmetalfinishing.net/ _________________ Bus Motor Build
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7527 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 12:34 pm Post subject: Re: Alternator Rebuild (long) |
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OOhhh.. Megger.. Insulation tester.. Interesting....
Thank you YouTube! _________________ Bus Motor Build
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7527 Location: Santa Cruz
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Danwvw Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012 Posts: 8892 Location: Oregon Coast
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Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 1:56 pm Post subject: Re: Alternator Rebuild (long) |
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Not sure if the later bus engine alternators used the same bearings as the Type 1's and 356's but bet they do. Here is a link. Also, try e-bay. I tried these AB bearings the lowest cost of the lot the last time I ordered. They just have black rubber seals though. I re-packed them with better grease.
the VXB catalog will show details. VBX 6202,
VBX 6203. _________________ 1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths! |
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telford dorr Samba Member
Joined: March 11, 2009 Posts: 3547 Location: San Diego (Encinitas)
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Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 8:38 pm Post subject: Re: Alternator Rebuild (long) |
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Make sure whatever bearings you buy are rated for around 20,000 rev/min.
5,000 r/min x 2.5 (belt ratio) = 12,500 r/min at alternator. Add safety factor. _________________ '71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. The pain is only felt by others.
Same thing happens when you're stupid. - Philippe Geluck
More VW electrical at http://telforddorr.com/ (available 9am to 9pm PST) |
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7527 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 7:52 pm Post subject: Re: Alternator Rebuild (long) |
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Just keeping this alive;
Main alt body vapor-blasted.
Got some useful stuff at Fry's!
Left that place empty-handed the last few times I was there.
Whaddaya know...
Ready to start assembling this thing hopefully soon..
_________________ Bus Motor Build
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telford dorr Samba Member
Joined: March 11, 2009 Posts: 3547 Location: San Diego (Encinitas)
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Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 8:18 pm Post subject: Re: Alternator Rebuild (long) |
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Clatter wrote: |
Got some useful stuff at Fry's!
Left that place empty-handed the last few times I was there. |
I didn't think that was possible...
Check those big diodes with a meter to be sure they survived the cleaning (just in case...) _________________ '71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. The pain is only felt by others.
Same thing happens when you're stupid. - Philippe Geluck
More VW electrical at http://telforddorr.com/ (available 9am to 9pm PST) |
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7527 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Fri May 18, 2018 11:42 am Post subject: Re: Alternator Rebuild (long) |
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telford dorr wrote: |
Clatter wrote: |
Got some useful stuff at Fry's!
Left that place empty-handed the last few times I was there. |
I didn't think that was possible...
Check those big diodes with a meter to be sure they survived the cleaning (just in case...) |
Yes, sir. Mission accomplished.
Luckily, my meter has a 'diode' setting,
And all checked out 100%. _________________ Bus Motor Build
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furgo Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2016 Posts: 944 Location: Southern Germany
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Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:16 am Post subject: Re: Alternator Rebuild (long) |
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A while ago I came across a broken alternator, and this thread has been really helpful in deciding to restore it.
One quick question to Clatter:
How did you separate the stator from the front part of the alternator case?
It would seem that the front bearing is held into place with a plate fastened with two screws one cannot get to? See one of the two screws in the middle of the picture:
_________________ '79 Westy, P22 interior, FI 2.0 l Federal, GE engine (hydraulic lifters)
Decode your M-Plate |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:26 pm Post subject: Re: Alternator Rebuild (long) |
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you remove the key and press the rotor out. Usually that works but sometimes it breaks the front plate if the bearing and shaft are rusted together. A few drops of penetrating oil helps. Don't let anything nick the windings when you go to press it out. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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furgo Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2016 Posts: 944 Location: Southern Germany
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Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:07 pm Post subject: Re: Alternator Rebuild (long) |
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Ah, perfect, thanks. I'll give that a go and be careful with the front plate. _________________ '79 Westy, P22 interior, FI 2.0 l Federal, GE engine (hydraulic lifters)
Decode your M-Plate |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:17 pm Post subject: Re: Alternator Rebuild (long) |
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don't let it fall or the slip rings hit anything. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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furgo Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2016 Posts: 944 Location: Southern Germany
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Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:28 am Post subject: Re: Alternator Rebuild (long) |
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I found a very detailed alternator disassembly (and rebuild) here:
http://www.ephotomotion.com/914engine/alt1.html
Interestingly, he went for an alternative way of disassembling the rotor. Rather than pulling the front frame, he drilled out the screws that hold the front bearing plate:
http://www.ephotomotion.com/914engine/alt3.html
And then he modified the plate and the front frame to accept screws from the outside to facilitate the next disassembly:
http://www.ephotomotion.com/914engine/alt4.html
Clatter's thread here and the linked one for the Porsche 914 are the only ones I've found for rebuilding a Type 4 alternator. It would seem that either they are quite robust or that there are enough good alternator rebuild shops to spare oneself a DIY rebuild. _________________ '79 Westy, P22 interior, FI 2.0 l Federal, GE engine (hydraulic lifters)
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7527 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 2:39 pm Post subject: Re: Alternator Rebuild (long) |
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Whoo!
Thanks for that link Furgo!
Had that article saved on a computer that died,
And couldn't find it anywhere..
That -very- issue had me tripped up for quite a while.
How to get the fasking thing back together??
Those stupid screws are facing the -wrong- way in order to get them tightened!!
Because I have so many other projects going all of the time,
It's all been sitting here in a box until the answer arrives!
So,
It's going back together.
The stator checked out good with a meter.
Should i go ahead and paint the wires and around all of those segments and whatnot with this here red pookie paint stuff?
Or should i leave it like it is and just put it all together?? _________________ Bus Motor Build
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telford dorr Samba Member
Joined: March 11, 2009 Posts: 3547 Location: San Diego (Encinitas)
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Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:22 pm Post subject: Re: Alternator Rebuild (long) |
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Here's a tip: if you make your own cover gasket for a type IV alternator, instead of cutting out all of the center gasket material, leave a 1-1/2" (approx) flap on either side inside aligned with the two big washers. If done properly, the flap will (1) isolate the washers from the cover, preventing shorts, and (2) prevent the diode plate mounting studs from contacting the cover, again preventing shorts. It goes without saying that these shorting points should have some clearance from the cover already. The flaps prevent any movement or alignment from resulting in a short later.
FWIW. _________________ '71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. The pain is only felt by others.
Same thing happens when you're stupid. - Philippe Geluck
More VW electrical at http://telforddorr.com/ (available 9am to 9pm PST) |
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7527 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 6:28 pm Post subject: Re: Alternator Rebuild (long) |
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Awlright.. A coupla months later..
Decided to follow what someone on the Internet said to do,
And coated the stator with some of that insulating varnish..
Hopefully, that's the right thing to do.
Now, I'll jump to something someone on the Internet said to do,
That's definitely NOT the right thing to do.
That link that 'Furgo' posted, the one where that guy with the 914 rebuilt his alt; He's doing it wrong.
This Guy-->
http://www.ephotomotion.com/914engine/alt3.html
Someone here already said the right way to go about this..
Quote: |
you remove the key and press the rotor out. Usually that works but sometimes it breaks the front plate if the bearing and shaft are rusted together. A few drops of penetrating oil helps. Don't let anything nick the windings when you go to press it out. |
Pains me to say that SGKent was right..!
Here's the details.. I'll document this part,
Because, so far, it's kind of the 'hard part'..
Since I'd left this thing apart for so long,
I forgot how it goes together,
So i took apart another core alt i had lying around.
This thing was crusty from sitting outside under a tree for years.
It was also soaked in rat piss..
Now,
When i pressed apart my other (first) alt, the one that i rebuilt,
It -did- bend that retaining plate with the two screws,
the one shown here:
But,
I didn't use some penetrating oil to soak in, and maybe dress down the shaft with some emery cloth.
Just tried tp go ahead and push the whole thing apart..
When i pushed apart this other old crusty crappy alt,
I did soak it a bit with some PB Blaster, and it pushed apart easy as pie,
Even though it was so rusty and almost stuck.
The one I rebuilt I played the sucker, and thru-drilled the two bolt holes,
And countersunk for a pair of flat-heads.
Also bought some nuts and birdshitted them onto the plate with my MIG.
(Yes i suck at welding)
After finally getting the alt back together (more on this during the next installment),
The rotor was scraping on something, and not turning free.
I loosened the two philips screws here,
And the rotor freed up,
So i knew where the problem was.
And, of course, the thing just presses right apart,
Just like it's sposeta'..
Here's a little 'witness' mark, where the plate was scraping the rotor.
Part of the issue was the plate getting bent during the press-apart operation,
Where my straightening ended up flattening the raised area around the bearing.
Rigged up a couple of sockets to push the raised ring back like it goes.
This meant that the nuts got weakened, and weren't in the best spot,
So they got re-welded.
At which point the thing went back together and spun free this time..
ANyways,
I put this here for anyone else that might be struggling through this for the first time.
Make SURE to soak the output shaft in penetrating oil,
Maybe dress it down a bit with some emery cloth or sandpaper,
And push it through.
DON'T just go for it and push the thing apart.
Because you just might make a whole bunch more work for yourself.. _________________ Bus Motor Build
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7527 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:04 pm Post subject: Re: Alternator Rebuild (long) |
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Anyways... Here's the rest of this..
After sitting around in a box for a couple of months,
It's like magic that stuff will disappear.
It was either a gnome, or maybe an elf,
That snuck in and made off with one of those long thru-bolts.
A donor alt gave up it's through-bolt, that will go get sent to cad plating in the weeks to come.
It was a long struggle to get the donor apart,
But it was downright essential in giving me a chance to remember how these things go together.
Got me one of those wiring harnesses from Bus Depot.
Check out this box of regulators TCash gave me!
In the regulator department, I'm good...
Hit me up!
So, real soldering wasn't something i ever did..
Sure, fix this wire or that, but this is my first heavy-duty job ever,
So feel free to school me on what I'm doing all wrong here.
First off was the struggle to remove the old solder from the connections;
Notice that the middle ring is still all plugged up.
Never knew how big of a chore it is to remove old solder.
Here we have a pan to protect the bench,
And some steel wool (It can catch fire! )
Plus a little butane torch from Fry's.
(Just like Fry's it didn't include any butane.. )
Those wires helped a bit because i could use them to stick thru there and remove some of the melted solder.
Hope I didn't just completely burn some of these parts up with my torch.
Even with trying to wipe or use capillary action,
There's no way to get those wires thru their old terminal they came from..!
Flux action shot..
Solder!
You can see the terminal on the right (bottom),
Sucker broke when i was trying to pry it open,
And stuff the wire..
Luckily, i was able to just bury it in solder.
Here's to hoping it will all just stay together anyways,
And not leave me stranded far from home late one night...
Cleaning these others up,
And getting them bent into place..
Soldering action shot, minus the soldering action.
Learned about how you have to keep the tips tight..
Here's what sister Bosch's soldering looks like.
Here's my version.
Thing wanted to rassle; they always want to fight about something..
Here's the trick to getting the brushes out of the way;
You just jam in a stick of some kind under the brush wires.
Seems a little sketchy, like the brush springs are going to rip the wires out of the brushes,
but it seems to have worked.
Before:
After:
There it is all Pretty-ed Up;
I still have no idea if it actually makes any electricity..
Wish i had a test rig like Telford.
Unfortunately, guys my local FLAPS isn't smart enough to test an externally-regulated alternator anymore..
So there you go,
Basically,
The take-home message is:
Don't bother to rebuild your own alternator; It's best to just go any buy one! _________________ Bus Motor Build
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 10:13 pm Post subject: Re: Alternator Rebuild (long) |
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Nice job.
sealing ring is sitting with USPS. They said Saturday then Sunday then tomorrow. A package sent at the same time is already delivered in Phoenix 24 hours ago. Is your Postal folks always this slow from Sacramento? Geez I could have driven it there in a couple hours. We're going on 5 days priority delivery from 200 miles away. i"m pissed at USPS. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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