Exhaust options please...75-78 needed for 1977 late bay setup

[mikewire]

Hey all - Did a search, but would like to get more input. I have my 1972 Bay with a 1977 motor (and heater boxes) and I need to replace my junky Empi extractor type exhaust - it's been great but it's run it's course and I want to upgrade.

What's everyone else running?

I'm not finding much for the three bolt late bay exhaust options that's quality. I'm even open to a stainless setup if there's someone out there making it.

I have almost zero interest in swapping to the 74-75 heater boxes just for an exhaust - I'm aware of the option, but the cost just seems too far out of the ballpark for something so simple.

Here's my setup now. I do have the original exhaust elbow, but my cross pipe has been cut. If I could find a cross pipe I could go with just a muffler. Edit: found one in the classifieds, just emailed the seller on it.

_________________
-Mike

@countdowngarage
@bigskyeuro

1972 VW Kombi 9 Passenger Deluxe w/ 2.0L F.I. VWAC swap
1965 VW Beetle Deluxe Bahama Blue

[SGKent]

I have a cross pipe, and a J-pipe in excellent condition that will be removed, along with a factory muffler sometime in the next month or so. (I have a NOS crosspipe, j-pipe and muffler that will replace it.) The new parts were used so Magnaflow could build the Catalytic for California buses.

You'd need either a catalytic or delete pipe, and some kind of EGR block off plate. When done it could look like this one if you paint it to match your exhaust. My parts will be posted in classifieds as soon as they are off. Usually these kinds of parts come up often in Classifieds if you watch for them.


These photos are from Samba member Martaskukla, and show parts in similar condition to mine.

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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[mikewire]

Thanks SGK! Great to see you post here, I've been absent for a little while. Thanks for the example - man, that exhaust is killer!

That's exactly what I'd like to get setup on mine. If your's is similar, maybe we can talk when you sell yours. Just curious, what's the reason for your upgrade?

Love the OEM look and sound. Mines a bit loud now so I'm hoping to quiet it down and get the fumes moving to the back of the bus, especially when working on it (no upper hatch).
_________________
-Mike

@countdowngarage
@bigskyeuro

1972 VW Kombi 9 Passenger Deluxe w/ 2.0L F.I. VWAC swap
1965 VW Beetle Deluxe Bahama Blue

[SGKent]

[Magion]

I wish I had a chance to buy NOS pipe! As you can see in those pictures everything looks pretty smooth except for the crossover pipe. And I was telling myself to be lucky to even get the rusty one. After sandblasting it kind of looks like moon surface!
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1975 Westfalia in Brilliant Orange
1995 Westfalia in Caribbean Green

[SGKent]

[69BahamaYellow]

Man, I'm jealous every time I see pics of a factory exhaust system. Having spent plenty of time in our 1978, ever since it was brand new, I remember how much quieter they are than any of the aftermarket setups.

I'm running one of the extractor style mufflers now with a single 1.75" outlet pipe, just like this one

It's not bad, but still significantly louder than OEM. I'm thinking of cutting the tailpipe and patching in a 12" glasspack for a little more noise attenuation. Something like this:

They're only about $20 and would be pretty easy to install; just cut the tail pipe and slip the glass pack over one end and plug the L shaped piece of tail pipe in the other end. Anybody else tried this with any success?

[mikewire]

[69BahamaYellow]

One other thing I remember about the factory 1978 exhaust is that it rusted to pieces in only maybe 5-6 years, and that was in Tennessee. We did get snow every year back then, so they salted the roads in winter. I remember the muffler was the first to go, followed quickly by the Y-Pipe, which turned that nice quiet exhaust really loud.

If you can come up with all the pieces, I'd make sure you figure out how to protect them well.

[Hoody]

Ummm no. NOS German Leistritz mufflers lasted 20 plus years. Personally I think your pissing in the wind with swapping in a glass pack tube of Chinese garbage. For a Late Bays there are only a couple of choices. Stock, Pacesetter aka. Chinese Garbage.... which you have, or the high end. Which your engine probably doesn’t need nor will you see any increase in horsepower from. There are plenty of places in this country that will build that “Tube” your referring to. The sad cold hard facts are that the pacesetter doesn’t fit to begin with, has dog shit flanges, is made with Chinese steel, well I will stop there. The original German “Ansa” mufflers were a way out of needing the crossover pipe. Far from ideal. Glass packs are loud as hell. You will be wasting your time and money. Do want you want....your going to anyway. How did your catylitic converter u pipes work out?

[69BahamaYellow]

Totally agree that German made almost always = quality, and China made almost always = garbage. In the case of the late bay exhaust system, my first hand experience tells a surprisingly different story.

My father got our bus brand new in Knoxville, TN in the winter of 1977; it's a 1978 model and I was 6 years old at the time and just starting 2nd grade. Over the next 3 years, we took countless trips, moved to Huntsville, AL and put over 100,000 miles on the bus; we drove the $hit out of that thing. By the time I was 10 years old and in the 5th grade (bus was 4 years old), we had moved back to TN. My mom was driving me and my sisters home from school in the bus one Friday afternoon, when it blew an oil galley plug. This led to my dad and I pulling the engine, over the weekend, to repair the blown plug. At that time, I noticed how rusty the exhaust (aft of the heat exchangers) had gotten. The EGR filter was completely rusted through, so my dad just removed it and welded shut the ends. The tail pipe had a hole in it, and flakes of rust were coming off of the Y-Pipe and muffler. At some point between 1983 and 1986 the bus exhaust had gotten so bad, that my dad had to replace it. By this time, the bus had become our 3rd vehicle, so he replaced the exhaust with a cheap aftermarket EMPI extractor system, like the Chinese made Pacesetter, from my previous post. My dad only drove the bus occasionally from 1986 till about 1991, at which time, he parked it at our family farm in TN, where it sat unused until 2011, when my son decided he had to have it. My son and I restored the bus together and he and I put another 50,000 miles on it with that same EMPI extractor exhaust, until just this year. My son had backed into something and bent the tailpipe, which broke something inside of that muffler, or I'd still be running it. Lots of surface rust on it, but no issues otherwise.

That's condensing a bunch of history, but in summary: the OEM German stuff lasted 5-6 years, while the aftermarket (probably Chinese) stuff lasted over 30 years. The OEM German exhaust had over 200,000 miles in a lot of different environments, all over the country; whereas, the aftermarket exhaust had maybe 70,000 miles on it, most of that here in TX, where it's hot and dry.

Back in the late 70's, exhaust systems were mostly plain steel, and rusted out in short order. If today's reproductions of those original designs are made of the same materials, then I wouldn't expect them to last any longer than the originals did, but perhaps with the right paint or coatings, you can squeak a little more life from them. I also wonder if fuel formulations back in the late 1970's and 1980's also contributed to the rust problem, with the higher Sulphur content making more acid in the exhaust stream.

[69BahamaYellow]

Forgot to add that I did recently test a glass pack (resonator) on my Pacesetter muffler by slipping it over the end of the tail pipe. It does make a difference, so I probably will weld something up proper.

Regarding replacing the U-Pipes, with universal catalytic converters, I made some cardboard mock-ups, and there's just not enough room in there to mount them, so my next thought is to replace the heat exchangers with universal cats, and enclose them in some kind of sheet metal housing that effectively becomes a heat exchanger. My current heat exchangers are in excellent shape, so I'm not too motivated to scrap them.

[WhirledTraveller]

People tend to forget that "back in the day" exhaust systems on cars where considered essentially routine maintenance items. Hence the "muffler and brake" shops everywhere.

So when your vehicle needed a muffler after 6-7 years of year-round driving you didn't think much more about it than if you needed a new set of tires. Came with the territory.

Then in 1995 the EPA mandated that all major emissions control components of a vehicle had to be warranted for 8 years or 80,000 miles. And they decreed that the exhaust system was a major emissions control component.

Suddenly all the automobile manufactures got religion and figured out out how to make exhausts out of stainless steel.

Also bear in mind that even the world's best exterior coating doesn't prevent your exhaust from rotting away from the inside. A major component of engine exhaust is water.
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1977 Westy, Automatic. Big Valve heads, CS Cam.

[69BahamaYellow]

I got happy with my Sawsall yesterday and decided to disect my old exhaust system, in an attempt to make it quieter.

Here's a look inside a typical Aftermarket exhaust. This one is over 30 years old, and still has plenty of life.

As you can see, the can is double wall construction, with the outer wall being galvanized. not sure what the inner wall is, but it's pretty thin. No rust, though. The internal baffles appear almost new (less the carbon).

The problem is that this exhaust is much louder than the OEM setup, and quiet is king in my book, so I did some experimenting with a typical glasspack resonator. I cut this one off an old Volvo exhaust and just slipped it over the end of the tailpipe, and it actually makes the exhaust quieter, so the next step is to just graft it onto the Pacesetter, something like this, but I'll use a smaller resonator to match the 1.75" dimensions of the tailpipe

Glasspacks are loud as hell by themselves, because they're only designed to attenuate certain frequencies, and at full throttle, they're essentiall just a pass through with no restriction. Here's what they look like inside.

Finally, to anyone doubting that a copy of the OEM exhaust component that's not made from stainless steel or otherwise very well protected will die an early death, here's what my 4 year old EGR filter that I bought new from BusDepot looks like now. I tried brazing holes along the way, but it essentially rotted from the inside out, so I had no choice but to buy a $120 new one.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love, love, love to have a quiet OEM exhaust system, but at somewhere between $750-$1,000 to round up all the components (which would still have of a used crossover pipe), the service life needs to be 10+ years. Unfortunately, I don't think it's anywhere near that, unless your bus sits in the garage all the time....

[aerosurfer]

[Hoody]

I should have been more clear when I mentioned the pacesetter set up. I have never researched the company but based on what I have seen the current offering screams Chinese production. Same with the EGR boxes. Your 30 year old one was probably made in the USA. Thunderbirds used to be great exhausts til their production moved to China. Unfortunately the only 2 pieces of the stock exhaust that cannot be coated on the inside are the EGR filter and the muffler. the Pacesetter is such a simple set up that reproducing them as a quality
piece would be simple. With thick flanges and quality steel they would last a lot longer than they do. If Vintage Speed made these in stainless they would sell a lot of them. Maybe there are not enough people who would pay the costs of a quality piece. I don’t know what the Chinese put in their steel. I have heard that it’s all recycled scrap. I am sur Ray will enlighten us. But their steel is junk. If your 30 year old Pacesetter fit correctly and was that well made I would consider having it reproduced by someone. I know a place that will make a custom muffler of any type you want with the inlets and outlets where ever you want them. The three pieces of pipe could be easily bent up and quality flanges are available. I seem to remember that the custom mufflers are around 100-150. So for 200-250 one could have a “Pacesetter” set up that would last and they may have choices to make them quieter as well. I happen to find them when researching mufflers for my FJ40. I can find them again and pass on the info.

[mikewire]

Good thread chatter fellas

Well, all my parts showed up at the shop today, I regret not taking a few pictures, but will update tomorrow.

Can anyone tell me where to get this clamp? I need to get one.

_________________
-Mike

@countdowngarage
@bigskyeuro

1972 VW Kombi 9 Passenger Deluxe w/ 2.0L F.I. VWAC swap
1965 VW Beetle Deluxe Bahama Blue

[jtauxe]

I am hearing in this thread two conflicting statements:
1) Vintage Speed makes great exhaust components, and
2) Chinese exhaust components are junk.

I might remind y'all that Vintage Speed IS Chinese, made in Taiwan. OK, so not mainland China, but... Also know that the Chinese are perfectly capable of making high-quality stuff (e.g. Apple Computers), which means that they are simply choosing not to for stuff like reproduction VW parts. That is in part our fault for buying the cheap crap.

I agree that VS makes some great stuff. I am running one of theirs on my '75 single cab and I love it. I surely wish that they would develop something for the '76-'78 setup!
_________________
John
"Travelling in a fried-out Kombi, on a hippie trail, head full of zombie..." - Colin Hay and Ron Strykert
http://vw.tauxe.net
1969 Transporter, 1971 Westfalia, 1976, 1977, 1976, 1977, 1971, 1973, 1977 Westfalias,
1979 Champagne Sunroof, 1974 Westfalia Automatic, 1979 Transporter, 1972 Sportsmobile, 1973 Transporter Wild Westerner, 1974 Westfalia parts bus, 1975 Mexican single cab *FOR SALE*, 1978 Irish 4-door double cab RHD

[SGKent]

[WhirledTraveller]