Dialing in a 2.2L WBX engine

[delibessleep]

Hello,

I am over thinking this, and need some opinions / confirmations from others:

I just completed the installation of my rebuild 2.1L WBX. It is now a 2.2L. I've put 150 Miles on it so far. The engine ran fine prior to rebuild...just used a little oil and was tired (it hit the 230K mileage mark.) It was a full rebuild by NW connecting Rod.

Here are the issues:

Start the engine. Rev it a bit and the RPMs like to stick around 2000-2500 RPM...it will drop eventually but not immediately (problem disappears when it is warm.) I checked the TPS, and it "clicks" like it should.

With the engine cold (temp barely registering on the gauge) it lags on acceleration. It feels like a turbo lag, with little power to accelerate. Almost like you need to feather the throttle a bit to get it going. This improves as it warms, but it didn't do this before the engine rebuild. It is especially noticeable when climbing a hill.

Once it gets to operating temps, the dash gauge registers higher than it did previously. Before the rebuild, the needle sat over the flashing light; now it rests at about 3/4. It has a new Rad, SS lines, new water pump, and the thermostat checks out (87c). Bled the system out, no leaks anywhere. Fan kicks in when stationary. If I coast down a hill, the needle drops a bit, but only until I get back on it.

I've checked the timing I swear about 20 times...Before the rebuild, I noticed that my old engine liked full advance at nearly 45* at 3000 rpm. I've timed it by the Bentley book, the "Tencentlife," and the GW method, and noticed that the performance improved the further the advance. It's at about 40* of advance now...it runs ok, but I am not entirely convinced that it's "dialed in." I expected a little better pull from the motor than I'm seeing. It really likes the 45*, but I am wary of this, and thought it may contribute to the high temperature gauge reading. I use premium fuel, and have not heard any pinging.

Also of note, I did not replace the temp II sensor (again, worked fine before but I am going to hit it with a multi-meter this evening. I have a new one in hand if needed.) Plugs are new, cap, rotor, etc. are not but again, all we're pulled from a good running motor. ISV hums. Fuel pump is kicking in. No drippings from the coil. O2 sensor is a year old at best. It fires up fine both cold and warm.

I pulled #4 plug to have a look: There is barely any coloration on the plug...light grey / brown if anything.

No vacuum leaks that I can tell. Everything was inspected prior to installation. I've sprayed a little ether at the throttle body and intake manifold with no change in RPMs. Once warm, it idles at about 900 rpm steadily.

Q's:

- Is 45* too far advanced? Anyone else have this situation with their engine?
- Would a slightly retarded advance cause this lag issue, and potentially cause the warmer gauge reading?
- Could a faulty Temp II cause this lag?
- Would the higher displacement of the new engine require a mixture adjustment? Granted, it isn't much of a change, but the thought crossed my mind that it may need attention.

What am I missing?
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63 Single Cab
87 Westy
18 Alltrack

Biology is destiny...choose your mutations carefully

[DanHoug]

your experiences closely mirror my 2.1 rebuild! here's some opinions...

- i think the hanging rev issue is a worn throttle body, mine drops to a 950 idle with a blip on the throttle. that said, just tonite, i disconnected my ICV, screwed the idle screw ALL the way in and had a rock steady idle not requiring a blip. having to screw the idle screw all the way in, at least on my setup, says to me either a worn TB or the base adjustment is wrong. i'd set the base at 1" vacuum but have the port capped anyway. so i could probably close the base position of the TB even more.

- with regard to temps, i had a brand new Wahler t-stat of the correct PN and temp range and my gauge almost pegged hot. new rad, WP, hoses, etc. took it out and it pan tested to 210F while the used t-stat i had was dead on at 185F. used one went back in. gauge runs exactly on the LED.

- and the friggin' timing... mine LOVES lots of advance also. just played around with it tonite and set it at about 45 at 3500rpm. it needed 3500 to achieve full advance, BTW. i know all the cautions and have been running at 35. going to try this for a while. interestingly, with it set at 35, my idle timing was at TDC but at this highly advanced state, the idle is dead on 5. idles smoother too. pulls stronger, everything seat of the pants says the engine is happier. no knocking.

- and the lag/bog issue. on mine, that was resolved by fine tuning the AFM flap, loosening the spring tension one notch so the vane opens more at idle. that AND i have my mixture screw all the way in... full rich. pretty good torque now at idle, can let the clutch out without gas, and takes off without bog.

as always... YMMV.

-dan

[Ahwahnee]

Mine is a 1.9 rebuilt as a GW 2.2 --

It did run a bit on the hot side for awhile (during break-in) though nothing like ¾ of the gauge.

I am running 40° advance 'all in' with everything connected. I use regular fuel, no premium or mid-range.

I have not experienced the other issues you describe. Engine has 50,000 miles on it now.

[jberger]

Your timing specs are not out of range. “Set to 5 deg at idle temp 2 disconnected...... check with temp 2 connected, must advance + 35 deg at 3500 rpm +\- 5..” of course I’m not copying word for word... but those are the specs. To me that reads 45 deg is ok. My experience says that is ok as well.. on stock and mildly modified rigs.

Also, as I’m sure you are aware, temp gauge readings have no real bearing on temperature between vans.... get an IR temp gun and check the actual temps for peace of mind..

To the heart of the matter... what is the build sheet on your nwcr “2.2”? Same as the air cooled world there are too many variables to think all rebuilt wbx’s are created equal..

J

[Zeitgeist 13]

Correct, Jerry typically sends the engine out with a build spec sheet detailing all the internal components and tasks performed upon the lump. Absent that, then all we've got to work with are the Bentley specs.
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Casey--

'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik?

[delibessleep]

Jerry was in the process of moving to his new shop, so I didn't get a tech sheet per se. He did balance the crank with the pulley and clutch kit connected. He used AA pistons but changed the rings. New heads with the valve keepers redone. Standard bearings. Everything else is stock.
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63 Single Cab
87 Westy
18 Alltrack

Biology is destiny...choose your mutations carefully

[jberger]

[erikgundy98]

Have you checked out any fuel related issue? I am searching for answers to a similar issue- and wonder if the 230K mark might mean rusted out fuel tank clogging the tanks internal filters.

I changed my fuel filter and had black crud come out... which makes me suspect my tank could be ready for a replacement. Have you checked yours?
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'90 Multivan Westfalia

[dobryan]

[borninabus]

i second the worn throttle body comment and would ask how long it sat while the rebuild was progressing? any issues like this always start with a fuel pressure test. also, you may want to look into the ICV adjustment using the small allen screw underneath the plug. good luck
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88 Van WBX, A/T - 13 JSW TDI 6M/T - 2012 Touareg TDI Sport

[delibessleep]

The van sat in my garage for about 2 months from the moment of the engine pull to the new installation.

I've thought about checking the pressure from the fuel pump...I don't know how it relates here though. Weak fuel pressure causes what?

My fuel filter is fine...no black crud!
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63 Single Cab
87 Westy
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Biology is destiny...choose your mutations carefully

[delibessleep]

Back at a PC now, so I can add better detail.

Engine Specs: I contacted Jerry at NWCR, and he's going to send me the spec sheet for the engine. He mentioned that I should've received it, but again with his move it slipped his mind.

A worn throttle body: I did spray some starting fluid around the pivot point of the butterfly and at the union at the plenum. No rise in RPM. Not saying this isn't an issue, just what I've done to check it out.

AFM adjustment: Adjusting the spring seems a bit...drastic...and I suspect very difficult to assure accuracy. Does someone have a step-by-step on this? Can it be returned to the original configuration if it turns out I don't like it?

TPS: It clicks immediately with a turn of the butterfly, and again at full open.

ISV: I pulled and cleaned the ISV as part of my installation process. Flushing it did loosen up some black crud, but the final rinse was clean. I think it is working fine. With the engine running, removal of the wiring to the ISV drops the RPM a little...re-installation smooths it out. It hums.

Fuel related issues: In regard to the fuel pump, one thing I did notice after installing and running the engine for the first time was a weird fuel leak at the output end of the fuel pump. I thought this was odd since I didn't touch it during the removal / install process. I installed a new hose and Oetiker clamp, and the leak went away. Never gave it much thought after that. Perhaps air in the fuel system? No leaks now. I do want to check the fuel pressure though...I have not done this. Fuel pump is pretty old too.

UPDATE: Yesterday I....timed it again! I assured timing at 35* at 3000 RPM. If I throttle to 3500 RPM, the timing advances another 3-5 degrees. I am ignoring any static timing for now (with the Temp II disconnected.) Throttle response is pretty good, and the short drive I took afterward with a couple of hills involved was OK. Not crisp immediate throttle response...still a little laggy...but OK.

I didn't drive it to work today to ensure it is bone cold. When I get home I'll hit Temp II with a meter and check it out (at the Sender itself and at the end of the wiring harness to the computer.)

Thanks to everyone for your input.
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63 Single Cab
87 Westy
18 Alltrack

Biology is destiny...choose your mutations carefully

[DanHoug]

regarding the t body... they can be worn so that the plate doesn't rest at the same spot each time it is closed, affecting the idle, but still not suck air thru their bushings.

and the AFM... if you pop the cover off, you have to cut a very thin line of sealant to do so, there is a large black plastic toothed wheel with a steel clip setting in one of the teeth. mark that position with a dot of "White Out" so you can return to it and then play around with lifting the steel clip and rotating the black wheel to enrichen (loosen spring tension) or lean (add spring tension) the entire mix. it works quite dramatically if you go 3 teeth, i played around with mine on a daily basis until i settled on 1 tooth weaker spring tension. at 3 teeth, mpg dropped pretty significantly.

-dan

[0to60in6min]

I put in a rebuilt 2.1 WBX, it now has 1700 miles on it..

the first 500 miles break-in there's a flat spot on the get go... feathering the clutch and rev up the engine helped but it's not the solution. This problem wasn't there with the old worn out engine...

I put in a new AFM and the problem is gone... also check the tension of throttle cable will help too

good luck...

[DanHoug]

where did you get a new AFM? or was it just new to you?

-dan

[delibessleep]

Ok...system checks using the Bentley (appendix B p.26)

Temp I - 2501
Temp II - 2539 at the ECU; 2543 at the sending unit
Air intake sensor (6 and 17) - 561
Fuel injectors - 4.1
Intake sensor (17 and 21) - 566
Throttle switch - 0.5
Control unit ground - 0.2

Fluke model 77 /BN tester
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63 Single Cab
87 Westy
18 Alltrack

Biology is destiny...choose your mutations carefully

[pushkick]

[delibessleep]

[delibessleep]

Van cafe has rebuilt AFMs. Spendy.
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63 Single Cab
87 Westy
18 Alltrack

Biology is destiny...choose your mutations carefully

[Stuartzickefoose]

If it’s a AFM you need I might have one.
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Stuart Zickefoose

2011 Jetta Sportwagen TDi 6 speed manual

206-841-7324
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