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iowa vw Samba Member
Joined: November 08, 2006 Posts: 588 Location: Los Angeles, CA 90036
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Posted: Sun May 13, 2018 7:58 pm Post subject: 2180 mild street build |
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I am putting together my build sheet for a 2180 and would like your input and recommendations. This is going in a 1966, currently body work is getting done.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
I will be assembling but all parts will be checked and balanced by my machinist. What I am trying to achieve is a great low end torque with good pull throughout the RPM range, max RPM around 7000. I could really use advice on heads and ignition. I want to create as much power as possible with low end torque, reliable, and still have a very streetable engine to cruise down the highway. How does this build look and what about heads/ignition?
1. AS41 case – full flow, stroker clearanced, 94mm bored, welded behind #3, case savers with 8mm studs, possible lifter bore sleeves with horizontal oil channels.
2. Shooting for 9.0 to 9.5:1 CR with deck height of .040 and still run pump gas.
3. CB - 82mm 4340 Chevy Journal
a. Silverline steel backed bearings
4. AA – Thickwall 92mm forged pistons with 94mm case/head (Grant Chrome piston rings if needed)
5. CB – 5.325 H Beam Chevy journal rods
a. Clevite steel backed bearings
6. Engle FK8 cam
a. Double thrust cam bearings
7. Stock Helical cut cam gear
8. CB – 1.4 Forged Rockers
9. Engle Phosphate and lube-a-lobe lifters
10. Manton Chromoly pushrods
11. Weber 44IDF with CB crossbar linkage
12. CB Maxi 26 oil pump
13. Scat 1.5 Q thin sump
14. A-1 1 5/8 Sidewinder exhaust
15. CB – Chromoly lightweight flywheel
a. Scat 4340 Gland nut
16. Kennedy stage 1 pressure plate
17. Kush Lock clutch
18. Heads - 42mm x 37.5
a. Steve Tim Stage 2
b. CB 044 Ultra Mag Plus
c. CB 044 Wedgeport
d. Others?
19. Ignition
a. Not sure to run a 010, 009, or other regular distributor
b. Magnaspark Digital
c. Would like some way to get a tachometer.
d. Recommendations?
Additional goodies
21. Remote oil filter
22. Mechanical oil thermostat
23. Derale Atomic remote oil cooler with thermostat-controlled fan
24. Oil cooler block off plate with oil pressure and temp send units
25. Eyeball engineering trans mid-mount
26. Fast Fab truss bar (torque bar)
27. Rear tires 185/65/15
28. Rancho Pro Street Swing Axle with 3.88 R/P
29. CB Serpentine belt kit
30. 36 HP fan shroud with wider fan, all other tin original VW
Last edited by iowa vw on Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:49 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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jfats808 Samba Member
Joined: December 10, 2007 Posts: 5022 Location: oahu hawaii
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Posted: Sun May 13, 2018 8:55 pm Post subject: Re: 2180 heads and ignition |
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#7 I'd run straight cuts to adjust your cam timing. A little too agressive for helical gears. Ive found that the CB's are the least loudest if that's what's bothering you about straight cuts.
I'd swap #9 with scat lifters. Lube a lobes are very synomous with pitting . Plus in the past, Engle lifters have thick heads and cause problems with cam to lifter clearance.
For ignition, I'd consider cb's crankfired kit. I run it and love the adjustability on the timing map. Also no moving parts. I have run an 010 and 009s. Yea it's another 80 bucks more than a well rebuilt 010 and new blue coil. It's worth a look.
Heads, it's really your budget. An fk8 on either one of the heads you mentioned will run well. The Stage 2 Tims head will likely have more torque down low due to slightly smaller ports. The ultra magnums are great heads and shouldn't be underestimated. Last choice suggestion would be CB mini wedges. 9.5 is a good cr. Tims offer free match porting with their head purchase and if you provide manifolds. That's like a 150-175$ savings. Also they flycut for cr target free. That's another 50$ savings. Rember to order your heads after you mock up your engine for dh. Crank, #1 p/c and rod is fine to mock up. Assemble while u wait for the heads to come in.
You can get a tach lead from the blue coil negative or the crank fire ecu has a tach lead. Either way. Run a switch to your oil cooler thermostat to your dash to turn it on or off. I'd run the oil cooler. Vw stock cooling is well made and works well. The fan will be there if u need it on the ext. cooler _________________ 2276 IDA's 86C 11-1 DD !
2017 48 Trijet DRLA's W125
Rockstar Suzuki wrote: |
You might as well put 10 year build in your bullshit sig, as it will NEVER run. Also your a dick |
You can always learn something new, even from a fool.
Check your oil levels routinely!
Last edited by jfats808 on Mon May 14, 2018 9:58 am; edited 1 time in total |
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iowa vw Samba Member
Joined: November 08, 2006 Posts: 588 Location: Los Angeles, CA 90036
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Posted: Sun May 13, 2018 9:40 pm Post subject: Re: 2180 heads and ignition |
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jfats808 wrote: |
#7 I'd run straight cuts to adjust your cam timing. A little too agressive for helical gears. Ive found that the CB's are the least loudest if that's what's bothering you about straight cuts.
I'd swap #9 with scat lifters. Lube a lobes are very synomous with pitting . Plus in the past, Engle lifters have thick heads and cause problems with cam to lifter clearance.
For ignition, I'd consider cb's crankfired kit. I run it and love the adjustability on the timing map. Also no moving parts. I have run an 010 and 009s. Yea it's another 80 bucks more than a well rebuilt 010 and new blue coil. It's worth a look.
Heads, it's really your budget. An fk8 on either one of the heads you mentioned will run well. The Stage 2 Tims head will likely have more torque down low due to slightly smaller ports. The super magnums are great heads and shouldn't be underestimated. Last choice suggestion would be CB mini wedges. 9.5 is a good cr. Tims offer free match porting with their head purchase and if you provide manifolds. That's like a 150-175$ savings. Also they flycut for cr target free. That's another 50$ savings. Rember to order your heads after you mock up your engine for dh. Crank, #1 p/c and rod is fine to mock up. Assemble while u wait for the heads to come in.
You can get a tach lead from the blue coil negative or the crank fire ecu has a tach lead. Either way. Run a switch to your oil cooler thermostat to your dash to turn it on or off. I'd run the oil cooler. Vw stock cooling is well made and works well. The fan will be there if u need it on the ext. cooler |
I want to run helical because I do not want the noise of straight cuts. I have been thinking about straight because they should be easier on the thrust bearings.
I forgot about the pitting issues with the lube-a-lobe lifters, thanks for reminding me. I'll check out the Scat racing lifters.
Do you mean this for ignition?
http://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/2092.htm
The budget for heads is whatever it takes. CB does start to cost a lot to have them match port everything to their heads so there is significant savings going with Steve Tims Stage 2. Just not really sure what are the advantages/disadvantages between those heads. I'm planing on getting everything but the heads through machining and mock up before final ordering the heads but the deck height will land right at 0.040.
I don't want the stock cooler so i can hide the oil sensors behind the shroud (tapped onto the block off plate) and keep engine bay a bit cleaner. |
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Teeroy Samba Member
Joined: April 20, 2003 Posts: 3682 Location: Eastern WA
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Posted: Sun May 13, 2018 9:59 pm Post subject: Re: 2180 heads and ignition |
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Use a type3 cooler in the shroud, it has a boss for pressure sender and will keep the air flow more balanced to heads _________________ Pres. Rivercity VW Club www.rcvwclub.org
Founder Derr Wheat Panzers (DWP)
ARR #3
www.autosportsnorthwest.org |
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iowa vw Samba Member
Joined: November 08, 2006 Posts: 588 Location: Los Angeles, CA 90036
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Posted: Sun May 13, 2018 11:07 pm Post subject: Re: 2180 heads and ignition |
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Teeroy wrote: |
Use a type3 cooler in the shroud, it has a boss for pressure sender and will keep the air flow more balanced to heads |
Now I'm not familiar with Type 3 oil coolers but don't they lay horizontally with airflow running back to front? That would block off airflow with a Type 1 shroud. I must be missing something. |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76760 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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vwracerdave Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004 Posts: 15279 Location: Deep in the 405
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Posted: Mon May 14, 2018 8:27 am Post subject: Re: 2180 heads and ignition |
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The helical gears will be fine with the FK-8 cam. Don't use any brand of lube-a-lobe lifters. Get the Tims stage II heads. CB MagnaSpark II ignition. 5.4 rods.
Skip the serpentine belt. They are just show car bling that does nothing for cooling or performance.
I personally feel the CSP centerpull linkage is superior to the hex bar stuff.
Mock up your engine before you buy any heads. Measure the deck height then order heads to the exact CC's you need to get the compression ratio you want. Steve Tims will also match port your manifolds for free.
I would run a 4.12 R&P with stock gears. _________________ 2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK
Featured in Dec. 2001 HOT VW's Magazine page 63
Watch my racing video's http://www.youtube.com/user/okvwracer/videos |
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iowa vw Samba Member
Joined: November 08, 2006 Posts: 588 Location: Los Angeles, CA 90036
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Posted: Mon May 14, 2018 9:12 am Post subject: Re: 2180 heads and ignition |
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Glenn - Yeah I have been watching your build sheet closely.
vwracerdave - I realize the serpentine is just for looks but I like that, I have stock already so might just wait on the serpentine. The 3.88 R/P is because I do a lot of interstate driving and don't want to be turning 4000 RPM. This will be a regular/daily driver.
What is the benefit of Tims Stage 2 over the CB heads other than cheaper?
Cost aside; what are the pros/cons between Magnaspark II and CB Crank trigger with MAP? Being able to digitally tune is really appealing. |
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Brian_e Samba Member
Joined: July 28, 2009 Posts: 3227 Location: Rapid City, SD
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Posted: Mon May 14, 2018 9:36 am Post subject: Re: 2180 heads and ignition |
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I agree with most of the other suggestions, but I would add a couple other suggestions.
If this is going into a bug, run 94mm cylinders instead of the 92's. They will cool fine, and the extra CC's for less $$ is a good thing. All the machine work is the same. Run standard iron Grant rings in AA P&C's. NOT the chrome rings.
You seem to favor CB parts. That is a good thing. Instead of the FK8, run the CB2288 cam and their lightweight lifters. Both are better quality, and the 2288 is their copy of the FK8.
I would really look into the new CB Ultra Mag. The chamber design on the new casting 044's is awesome. The port volume is really close to the Tims' S2, and they flow better than the last set of Tims' S2's I had on my flow bench. Both heads are awesome, but I think the new CB stuff is more advanced and should make more power, especially down low. You can also get the matching manifolds with the CB stuff.
CB Magnaspark 2, and I agree with Dave on the 4.12's with stock gears.
CB straight cuts are pretty quiet, and way better quality then poor fitting aftermarket aluminum gears.
Run a stock oil cooler inside the shroud, tap your remote filter base for the temp sensor, and get one of these to mount the pressure sender on the inlet side of the base. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/rus-670083/overview/ Then all you sender wires can run along with your cooler lines, and be out of the way hidden.
Brian |
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Teeroy Samba Member
Joined: April 20, 2003 Posts: 3682 Location: Eastern WA
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Posted: Mon May 14, 2018 9:50 am Post subject: Re: 2180 heads and ignition |
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The type 3 cooler will mount on the beetle cooler adapter, the sender will point towards the firewall, the shroud needs to be trimmed for the sender. Brian's idea is easier.
I like the stage 2 Tims (the included machine work is a big value) you don't need a fancy distributor to make a lot of power, I'm using Mexican Bosch SVDA and made 148hp at the wheels. Get the expensive stuff bought and running first, then upgrade the ignition _________________ Pres. Rivercity VW Club www.rcvwclub.org
Founder Derr Wheat Panzers (DWP)
ARR #3
www.autosportsnorthwest.org |
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jfats808 Samba Member
Joined: December 10, 2007 Posts: 5022 Location: oahu hawaii
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Posted: Mon May 14, 2018 9:58 am Post subject: Re: 2180 heads and ignition |
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Oops. Meant the ultra mags not super. _________________ 2276 IDA's 86C 11-1 DD !
2017 48 Trijet DRLA's W125
Rockstar Suzuki wrote: |
You might as well put 10 year build in your bullshit sig, as it will NEVER run. Also your a dick |
You can always learn something new, even from a fool.
Check your oil levels routinely! |
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Dan Ruddock Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2012 Posts: 3574 Location: Sarasota, in my adopted state of Florida
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Posted: Mon May 14, 2018 10:33 am Post subject: Re: 2180 heads and ignition |
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The Tims heads cool better than the un-modified 044 castings. If you like quiet, do not run a CB cam or straight cut gears. I run oem mag gears, no problem even with a 86c webcam. Webcam 86 series is the quietest you will find and they are easy on parts.
Dan |
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iowa vw Samba Member
Joined: November 08, 2006 Posts: 588 Location: Los Angeles, CA 90036
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Posted: Mon May 14, 2018 10:36 am Post subject: Re: 2180 heads and ignition |
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Teeroy - I am a firm believer in buy it right the first time so I don't want to get a cheaper distributor now to upgrade again later.
Brian_e - I want to run the Thick Wall 92's hoping they will last a long time because they are thicker than the 94's. I think I can make the HP in other ways then 2mm more bore. I like the suggestion of tapping the filter mount for temp and the fitting for pressure. My thought with removing the stock Doghouse cooler is that I will have a large fan cooler and gaining room behind the shroud for breather box, ignition stuff, and fuel lines/regulator would be nice.
Why not run the 3.88 R/P? I don't want to be screaming 4000 RPM down the interstate. |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76760 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Mon May 14, 2018 11:24 am Post subject: Re: 2180 heads and ignition |
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Mine doesn't need a secondary oil cooler. The stock Type 1 does the job. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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iowa vw Samba Member
Joined: November 08, 2006 Posts: 588 Location: Los Angeles, CA 90036
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Posted: Mon May 14, 2018 11:33 am Post subject: Re: 2180 heads and ignition |
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Glenn wrote: |
Mine doesn't need a secondary oil cooler. The stock Type 1 does the job. |
I'm in sunny California and drive all over the state so want to make sure that I am fully covered, remote oil cooler is cheap insurance. |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76760 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Mon May 14, 2018 11:34 am Post subject: Re: 2180 heads and ignition |
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Make sure you add a thermostat and a fan switch on the output of the cooler to ensure your oil is not too cool. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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iowa vw Samba Member
Joined: November 08, 2006 Posts: 588 Location: Los Angeles, CA 90036
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Posted: Mon May 14, 2018 11:38 am Post subject: Re: 2180 heads and ignition |
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Glenn wrote: |
Make sure you add a thermostat and a fan switch on the output of the cooler to ensure your oil is not too cool. |
There is an oil bypass thermostat (180F) between the filter and cooler as well as a fan thermostat (180F) on the output side of the cooler. The oil bypass allows 5%-10% oil flow through cooler when closed to eliminate cold oil shock and air pockets. |
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jpaull Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005 Posts: 3456 Location: Paradise, Ca
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Posted: Mon May 14, 2018 12:20 pm Post subject: Re: 2180 heads and ignition |
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Your only running a 24.5 tire, which is what I am running at the moment.
3.88 and .82 4th for that tire size if you want to be comfy at normal 75mph freeway speeds. I'm at 3600 rpms/75mph _________________ [email protected] MPH 1/4 Mile & 8.1 @ 83.7MPH in 1/8 Mile with Mild Type 1 VW Mag Case 2234cc commuter engine in stock weight bug w/only .491 total lift(CB2292 Cam), 42x37 heads, 48idf's, Street tires, Belt on, Mufflers, Pump gas, video of the run here: https://youtu.be/M3SPqMOKAOg
Transmission by MCMScott:
Rhino case, Klinkenberg 4.12, Superdiff, 002 mainshaft with 091 first idler. Weddle 1.48 Third & 1.14 Fourth. |
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maui Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2004 Posts: 438
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Posted: Mon May 14, 2018 12:22 pm Post subject: Re: 2180 heads and ignition |
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doghouse cooler, full flow with cooler and filter and thermostat cuz what if you flying down the road far from home and having charging problems so you can't run your fan. Power only to the coil will get you far and doghouse will keep things cool. |
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Teeroy Samba Member
Joined: April 20, 2003 Posts: 3682 Location: Eastern WA
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Posted: Mon May 14, 2018 4:47 pm Post subject: Re: 2180 heads and ignition |
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I thought you might have a 009 or 010 already. Another option is a locked VW distributor and a Black Box, not sure how that pencils out compared to the Magnaspark. I buddy of mine just Bought a Magnaspark to play with, ran ok out of the box, has not had time to tweek it yet. _________________ Pres. Rivercity VW Club www.rcvwclub.org
Founder Derr Wheat Panzers (DWP)
ARR #3
www.autosportsnorthwest.org |
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