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Help KentPS get back on the road?
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SGKent Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 3:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Help KentPS get back on the road? Reply with quote

know that lean the mixture tool? Would not surprise me if it did not have a part in how soft that aluminum is.

Glad he made it home.
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 4:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Help KentPS get back on the road? Reply with quote

SGKent wrote:
know that lean the mixture tool? Would not surprise me if it did not have a part in how soft that aluminum is.


So your thinking is the mixture was too lean, and CHT went up? That's a possibility, since there is a slight steady incline going into the Grand Canyon, and I don't currently have a CHT gauge installed.

Also, when the engine was first installed after the FI swap, the TSII wire was grounded since I didn't have a TSII or somewhere to mount it. Now that I get to pull the drivetrain a second time (joy of joys!), I can find a good mounting place for another TSII, and hope it lasts longer than the other two that failed this past year.

SGKent wrote:
Glad he made it home.

I'm not quite home yet. Uhaul doesn't open until 9am tomorrow. So WilliamM has been showing me how to lap valves. He has a 1.7 head in good condition, and all the valves and springs. So we (he) has been putting a new head together today. It's been a great learning process.

However, Bill just pointed out something.... I am not certain of the size of this engine. It was originally a 1.7, but it could have been converted at some point in its long life. I won't know until I get it home and pull the head.

Stay tuned. Laughing
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 4:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Help KentPS get back on the road? Reply with quote

SGKent wrote:
know that lean the mixture tool? Would not surprise me if it did not have a part in how soft that aluminum is.

Glad he made it home.
That’s exactly what my thoughts were. Two heat inducing conditions were introduced at the same time. Leaner mixture and higher load due to climbing. If you could watch CHTs, I would maybe try that, otherwise....I wouldn’t.
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 5:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Help KentPS get back on the road? Reply with quote

I hate to tell you this Kent but you have an engine with an unknown history (or size) and here you are lapping valves in a replacement head. Heads need to be balanced. You can install one temporarily but I doubt it would be a good, long term fix. You’ll be right back here with additional engine problems really soon if you do just one head. Do it right the first time. Just my .002
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 7:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Help KentPS get back on the road? Reply with quote

aeromech wrote:
I hate to tell you this Kent but you have an engine with an unknown history (or size) and here you are lapping valves in a replacement head. Heads need to be balanced. You can install one temporarily but I doubt it would be a good, long term fix. You’ll be right back here with additional engine problems really soon if you do just one head. Do it right the first time. Just my .002


Gary just said what I was thinking as well. You clearly want to get out and enjoy your VW frequently.

I'd also vote to tear the engine completely down. Get it rebuilt so you know exactly what you have and know you can depend on it.
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 7:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Help KentPS get back on the road? Reply with quote

Thanks for the advice, guys. You are right, and ideally that is what I would prefer to do. However, this repair is an interim fix. I have leads on a couple 2.0 l engines. With luck, I'll get one and be able to take my time to learn to rebuild it correctly. Budgetary constraints make it not feasible to do two rebuilds, so this will have to suffice until that happens.
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 11:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Help KentPS get back on the road? Reply with quote

I am 100% certain it’s not a 2.0L. It’s very likely a 1700 but maaaybe an 1800.

I’m glad you’re safe! That head looks beat, but I think it got you to where it needed to, just like we thought it would Smile

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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 6:54 am    Post subject: Re: Help KentPS get back on the road? Reply with quote

cc the head when the old one comes off, and compare the style chamber. You can cc the good cylinder and assume that the bad one is the same.
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 7:05 am    Post subject: Re: Help KentPS get back on the road? Reply with quote

As good as the "complete " rebuild sounds- Just wanting to go camping a few times this summer- is enough to make me side with the repair,-- As Kent said- he has plans to do a rebuild at some times in the future. Collecting quality parts is a challenge. And time consuming. ( unless you have a vast supply of green to back up a "Taylor made" engine.)-

BUT- again- as Robbie said- it could be an 1800. In which case the rebuilt won't fit.

The rebuilt was a clean head- no repairs and good guides. Got new exhaust valves, and the best of a dozen intakes I had cut in bulk years ago. The seats were marginally distorted but cleaned up quick as the valves are still high in the heads. A set of neways was use to cut the seats followed up with a light lapping to test the placement. So- baring excessive use of the magic knob on the dash board, I have faith these valves and seats will work for a while, and were not $400 like new better heads are now a days.

Was happy the HF bore scope worked as well as it did to confirm the valve seat condition,

Like all old stuff we have run the sage smoke over it and called in the Shaman to bless the work , then toasted it's success- Then printed up a discloser - that this was the extent of the warranty. pics to come.[img]
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Last edited by williamM on Mon May 21, 2018 7:45 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 7:25 am    Post subject: Re: Help KentPS get back on the road? Reply with quote

I never said full rebuild but I did say your rings may be fucked. I watched Mike put a new rebuilt ($700) set of heads on his engine only to find low compression in #3 because he never removed the injector connector. So... pull your cylinders and re-ring. Do 20% more work and be happy.
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 7:26 am    Post subject: Re: Help KentPS get back on the road? Reply with quote

SGKent wrote:
know that lean the mixture tool? Would not surprise me if it did not have a part in how soft that aluminum is.



Not necessarily true.. But possible..


The '79-up FI system was designed to automatically run at stoich at all times.
Before that, 14.7, or close, was their target AFR,
And vacuum leaks pulled it into 14.7, or nearby, over time.

That is the very hottest point at which a motor can run.

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VW was trying to hit stoich for emissions reasons; motor life be damned!
Unless Kent guessed 14.7 acurately by some random chance,
He was doing better than VW.

However,

Unless our OP is running at least a CHT gauge,
(Preferably a wideband),
He is going to be guessing at his AFR..


I must be getting old,
Or at least have done this for too long.
Pulling and stuffing a motor a couple times to save a few bucks doesn't seem like that much fun.
Same with riding home on a trailer..


Ah, the days before 'married with children'.. When 'adventures' weren't 'catastrophes'!
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 8:24 am    Post subject: Re: Help KentPS get back on the road? Reply with quote

The extra fuel cools the cylinder. Doing the climb he was doing means for longevity he should have run it rich. Rich but not too rich.
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 4:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Help KentPS get back on the road? Reply with quote

Thanks a million for everyone's help these past few days. Chloe is now safely ensconced in her garage, with no shrapnel. As soon as I get a free day, I'll start on the engine and let you know what I find.

SGKent wrote:
cc the head when the old one comes off, and compare the style chamber. You can cc the good cylinder and assume that the bad one is the same.

That is what Bill suggested. Yes, I am definitely going to do that.

aeromech wrote:
I never said full rebuild but I did say your rings may be fucked. I watched Mike put a new rebuilt ($700) set of heads on his engine only to find low compression in #3 because he never removed the injector connector. So... pull your cylinders and re-ring. Do 20% more work and be happy.

Excellent point. I just assumed you had meant a full rebuild. I'd hate to have to pull it again for something I overlooked. I wish I could do a rebuild, though. It would be a great learning experience, but the bank account says it's not gonna happen this year. Medical bills pile up quickly. Rolling Eyes

When you say "pull cylinderS", do you meant all four? ...or just #3?

As long as I have the engine out and at least the 3/4 head removed, is there anything else you'd suggest checking?

While I was at WilliamM's, I noticed a very cool looking license plate on his Blue bus....

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I grew up in San Luis Obispo, and lived on Broad Street for several years. I remember that VW place from high school (in the late '70's), but not sure what happened to it. BillM was kind enough to give it to me, so it is going to be proudly mounted on Chloe. Thanks Bill! Dancing
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 4:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Help KentPS get back on the road? Reply with quote

Kent,
You have to pull the other head so that you can cc (the heads) and make sure they are balanced. Since you'll have access, you slide the jugs off, hone the cylinders, and install new rings. Do the job right the first time and be happy. It's only about 20% more work and not much cost.
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 5:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Help KentPS get back on the road? Reply with quote

Thanks Aeromech. I was just planning on pulling the old head and comparing the volume to the new one. But doing them all is very doable. And who knows what I might find in the 1/2 side... Shocked
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 5:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Help KentPS get back on the road? Reply with quote

The hard part will have already been done. Pulling the engine, tearing it down to the long block, etc. you’ll literally be a few head nuts away from getting the opposite head off too.
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 5:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Help KentPS get back on the road? Reply with quote

This is exactly how my complete rebuild started a couple years ago..

"Well, I guess I should pull this... and maybe this..."

Next thing you know the cases are empty.

Confused
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 5:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Help KentPS get back on the road? Reply with quote

so we have two guys who both own VW buses. One drops a valve seat, pulls the engine, replaces or has the head rebuilt, puts it back together and takes a trip. 300 miles later he drops a seat on the other side. Darn.

Guy two pulls both heads off, either replaces both or has both rebuilt and puts them back on. He goes out and doesn't drop a seat.

If you pull the cylinders off you will have to replace the rings. You will also measure the pistons and if they are too worn on the ring lands, or the skirts are too collapsed, or the top of the piston is scuffed they will have to be replaced. So here is the deal. Think over carefully how far into this engine you want to go time wise and cost. I agree with Gary on this but be advised that things can go downhill like the plumber who goes to replace a rubber washer but has to replace the faucet which requires new hoses which requires new stubs so he tears into the wall but it is iron pipes...……
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 5:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Help KentPS get back on the road? Reply with quote

I've heard it called shipwright's disease. One of the cleats is rusty so you replace it with a nice brass cleat, the deck it's attached to is a little spongey so that gets fixed too but while doing it you find, well you get the idea. I almost bought a small sailboat once until it occurred to me that it would be like a floating bus.
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 5:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Help KentPS get back on the road? Reply with quote

It’s true. You open a can of worms. So if the budget only allows a quick repair and your time is free and you don’t want reliability as much as saving money, then fix what you have to but be aware that next years trip might end the same way. Not sure if your bus is 1976 or a 1973 but if you don’t need smog I’d convert to an 2L type one. That’s a whole new discussion
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