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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Sun May 20, 2018 3:32 pm Post subject: Re: Help KentPS get back on the road? |
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know that lean the mixture tool? Would not surprise me if it did not have a part in how soft that aluminum is.
Glad he made it home. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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KentABQ Samba Member
Joined: September 11, 2016 Posts: 2406 Location: Albuquerque NM
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Posted: Sun May 20, 2018 4:10 pm Post subject: Re: Help KentPS get back on the road? |
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SGKent wrote: |
know that lean the mixture tool? Would not surprise me if it did not have a part in how soft that aluminum is. |
So your thinking is the mixture was too lean, and CHT went up? That's a possibility, since there is a slight steady incline going into the Grand Canyon, and I don't currently have a CHT gauge installed.
Also, when the engine was first installed after the FI swap, the TSII wire was grounded since I didn't have a TSII or somewhere to mount it. Now that I get to pull the drivetrain a second time (joy of joys!), I can find a good mounting place for another TSII, and hope it lasts longer than the other two that failed this past year.
SGKent wrote: |
Glad he made it home. |
I'm not quite home yet. Uhaul doesn't open until 9am tomorrow. So WilliamM has been showing me how to lap valves. He has a 1.7 head in good condition, and all the valves and springs. So we (he) has been putting a new head together today. It's been a great learning process.
However, Bill just pointed out something.... I am not certain of the size of this engine. It was originally a 1.7, but it could have been converted at some point in its long life. I won't know until I get it home and pull the head.
Stay tuned. _________________ -Kent-
1976 Riviera, 1.8l FI chrome yellow VAN - "Chloe"
"I must say, how can you be in a bad mood driving this vehicle full of vibrant color.
Cars of today are so bland in comparison. It's like driving a celebration!" ---WildIdea
Bus ownership via emoticons:
---williamM |
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TomWesty Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2007 Posts: 3482 Location: Wyoming,USA
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Posted: Sun May 20, 2018 4:56 pm Post subject: Re: Help KentPS get back on the road? |
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SGKent wrote: |
know that lean the mixture tool? Would not surprise me if it did not have a part in how soft that aluminum is.
Glad he made it home. |
That’s exactly what my thoughts were. Two heat inducing conditions were introduced at the same time. Leaner mixture and higher load due to climbing. If you could watch CHTs, I would maybe try that, otherwise....I wouldn’t. _________________ If you haven't bled on them, you haven't worked on them.
Visit: www.tomcoryell.com and check out my music! |
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aeromech Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006 Posts: 16927 Location: San Diego, California
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Posted: Sun May 20, 2018 5:04 pm Post subject: Re: Help KentPS get back on the road? |
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I hate to tell you this Kent but you have an engine with an unknown history (or size) and here you are lapping valves in a replacement head. Heads need to be balanced. You can install one temporarily but I doubt it would be a good, long term fix. You’ll be right back here with additional engine problems really soon if you do just one head. Do it right the first time. Just my .002 _________________ Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound |
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wcfvw69 Samba Purist
Joined: June 10, 2004 Posts: 13387 Location: Arizona
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Posted: Sun May 20, 2018 7:02 pm Post subject: Re: Help KentPS get back on the road? |
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aeromech wrote: |
I hate to tell you this Kent but you have an engine with an unknown history (or size) and here you are lapping valves in a replacement head. Heads need to be balanced. You can install one temporarily but I doubt it would be a good, long term fix. You’ll be right back here with additional engine problems really soon if you do just one head. Do it right the first time. Just my .002 |
Gary just said what I was thinking as well. You clearly want to get out and enjoy your VW frequently.
I'd also vote to tear the engine completely down. Get it rebuilt so you know exactly what you have and know you can depend on it. _________________ Contact me at [email protected]
Follow me on instagram @sparxwerksllc
Decades of VW and VW parts restoration experience.
The Samba member since 2004.
**Now rebuilding throttle bodies for VW's and Porsche's**
**Restored German Bosch distributors for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored German Pierburg fuel pumps for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche fuel pumps or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche distributors or I can restore yours** |
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KentABQ Samba Member
Joined: September 11, 2016 Posts: 2406 Location: Albuquerque NM
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Posted: Sun May 20, 2018 7:37 pm Post subject: Re: Help KentPS get back on the road? |
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Thanks for the advice, guys. You are right, and ideally that is what I would prefer to do. However, this repair is an interim fix. I have leads on a couple 2.0 l engines. With luck, I'll get one and be able to take my time to learn to rebuild it correctly. Budgetary constraints make it not feasible to do two rebuilds, so this will have to suffice until that happens. _________________ -Kent-
1976 Riviera, 1.8l FI chrome yellow VAN - "Chloe"
"I must say, how can you be in a bad mood driving this vehicle full of vibrant color.
Cars of today are so bland in comparison. It's like driving a celebration!" ---WildIdea
Bus ownership via emoticons:
---williamM |
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airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12689 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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Posted: Sun May 20, 2018 11:19 pm Post subject: Re: Help KentPS get back on the road? |
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I am 100% certain it’s not a 2.0L. It’s very likely a 1700 but maaaybe an 1800.
I’m glad you’re safe! That head looks beat, but I think it got you to where it needed to, just like we thought it would
Robbie _________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 6:54 am Post subject: Re: Help KentPS get back on the road? |
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cc the head when the old one comes off, and compare the style chamber. You can cc the good cylinder and assume that the bad one is the same. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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williamM Samba Member
Joined: August 07, 2008 Posts: 4333 Location: southwest Arizona
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Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 7:05 am Post subject: Re: Help KentPS get back on the road? |
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As good as the "complete " rebuild sounds- Just wanting to go camping a few times this summer- is enough to make me side with the repair,-- As Kent said- he has plans to do a rebuild at some times in the future. Collecting quality parts is a challenge. And time consuming. ( unless you have a vast supply of green to back up a "Taylor made" engine.)-
BUT- again- as Robbie said- it could be an 1800. In which case the rebuilt won't fit.
The rebuilt was a clean head- no repairs and good guides. Got new exhaust valves, and the best of a dozen intakes I had cut in bulk years ago. The seats were marginally distorted but cleaned up quick as the valves are still high in the heads. A set of neways was use to cut the seats followed up with a light lapping to test the placement. So- baring excessive use of the magic knob on the dash board, I have faith these valves and seats will work for a while, and were not $400 like new better heads are now a days.
Was happy the HF bore scope worked as well as it did to confirm the valve seat condition,
Like all old stuff we have run the sage smoke over it and called in the Shaman to bless the work , then toasted it's success- Then printed up a discloser - that this was the extent of the warranty. pics to come.[img]
[/img] _________________ some days I get up and just sit and think. Some days I just sit.
opinion untempered by fact is ignorance.
Don't step in any!
Last edited by williamM on Mon May 21, 2018 7:45 am; edited 1 time in total |
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aeromech Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006 Posts: 16927 Location: San Diego, California
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Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 7:25 am Post subject: Re: Help KentPS get back on the road? |
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I never said full rebuild but I did say your rings may be fucked. I watched Mike put a new rebuilt ($700) set of heads on his engine only to find low compression in #3 because he never removed the injector connector. So... pull your cylinders and re-ring. Do 20% more work and be happy. _________________ Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound |
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7527 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 7:26 am Post subject: Re: Help KentPS get back on the road? |
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SGKent wrote: |
know that lean the mixture tool? Would not surprise me if it did not have a part in how soft that aluminum is.
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Not necessarily true.. But possible..
The '79-up FI system was designed to automatically run at stoich at all times.
Before that, 14.7, or close, was their target AFR,
And vacuum leaks pulled it into 14.7, or nearby, over time.
That is the very hottest point at which a motor can run.
VW was trying to hit stoich for emissions reasons; motor life be damned!
Unless Kent guessed 14.7 acurately by some random chance,
He was doing better than VW.
However,
Unless our OP is running at least a CHT gauge,
(Preferably a wideband),
He is going to be guessing at his AFR..
I must be getting old,
Or at least have done this for too long.
Pulling and stuffing a motor a couple times to save a few bucks doesn't seem like that much fun.
Same with riding home on a trailer..
Ah, the days before 'married with children'.. When 'adventures' weren't 'catastrophes'! _________________ Bus Motor Build
What’s That Noise?!? |
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aeromech Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006 Posts: 16927 Location: San Diego, California
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Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 8:24 am Post subject: Re: Help KentPS get back on the road? |
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The extra fuel cools the cylinder. Doing the climb he was doing means for longevity he should have run it rich. Rich but not too rich. _________________ Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound |
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KentABQ Samba Member
Joined: September 11, 2016 Posts: 2406 Location: Albuquerque NM
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Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 4:52 pm Post subject: Re: Help KentPS get back on the road? |
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Thanks a million for everyone's help these past few days. Chloe is now safely ensconced in her garage, with no shrapnel. As soon as I get a free day, I'll start on the engine and let you know what I find.
SGKent wrote: |
cc the head when the old one comes off, and compare the style chamber. You can cc the good cylinder and assume that the bad one is the same. |
That is what Bill suggested. Yes, I am definitely going to do that.
aeromech wrote: |
I never said full rebuild but I did say your rings may be fucked. I watched Mike put a new rebuilt ($700) set of heads on his engine only to find low compression in #3 because he never removed the injector connector. So... pull your cylinders and re-ring. Do 20% more work and be happy. |
Excellent point. I just assumed you had meant a full rebuild. I'd hate to have to pull it again for something I overlooked. I wish I could do a rebuild, though. It would be a great learning experience, but the bank account says it's not gonna happen this year. Medical bills pile up quickly.
When you say "pull cylinderS", do you meant all four? ...or just #3?
As long as I have the engine out and at least the 3/4 head removed, is there anything else you'd suggest checking?
While I was at WilliamM's, I noticed a very cool looking license plate on his Blue bus....
I grew up in San Luis Obispo, and lived on Broad Street for several years. I remember that VW place from high school (in the late '70's), but not sure what happened to it. BillM was kind enough to give it to me, so it is going to be proudly mounted on Chloe. Thanks Bill! _________________ -Kent-
1976 Riviera, 1.8l FI chrome yellow VAN - "Chloe"
"I must say, how can you be in a bad mood driving this vehicle full of vibrant color.
Cars of today are so bland in comparison. It's like driving a celebration!" ---WildIdea
Bus ownership via emoticons:
---williamM |
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aeromech Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006 Posts: 16927 Location: San Diego, California
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Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 4:58 pm Post subject: Re: Help KentPS get back on the road? |
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Kent,
You have to pull the other head so that you can cc (the heads) and make sure they are balanced. Since you'll have access, you slide the jugs off, hone the cylinders, and install new rings. Do the job right the first time and be happy. It's only about 20% more work and not much cost. _________________ Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound |
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KentABQ Samba Member
Joined: September 11, 2016 Posts: 2406 Location: Albuquerque NM
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Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 5:23 pm Post subject: Re: Help KentPS get back on the road? |
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Thanks Aeromech. I was just planning on pulling the old head and comparing the volume to the new one. But doing them all is very doable. And who knows what I might find in the 1/2 side... _________________ -Kent-
1976 Riviera, 1.8l FI chrome yellow VAN - "Chloe"
"I must say, how can you be in a bad mood driving this vehicle full of vibrant color.
Cars of today are so bland in comparison. It's like driving a celebration!" ---WildIdea
Bus ownership via emoticons:
---williamM |
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aeromech Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006 Posts: 16927 Location: San Diego, California
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Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 5:28 pm Post subject: Re: Help KentPS get back on the road? |
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The hard part will have already been done. Pulling the engine, tearing it down to the long block, etc. you’ll literally be a few head nuts away from getting the opposite head off too. _________________ Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound |
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cmonSTART Samba Member
Joined: July 15, 2014 Posts: 1915 Location: NH
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Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 5:29 pm Post subject: Re: Help KentPS get back on the road? |
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This is exactly how my complete rebuild started a couple years ago..
"Well, I guess I should pull this... and maybe this..."
Next thing you know the cases are empty.
_________________ '78 Bus 2.0FI
de K1IGS |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 5:31 pm Post subject: Re: Help KentPS get back on the road? |
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so we have two guys who both own VW buses. One drops a valve seat, pulls the engine, replaces or has the head rebuilt, puts it back together and takes a trip. 300 miles later he drops a seat on the other side. Darn.
Guy two pulls both heads off, either replaces both or has both rebuilt and puts them back on. He goes out and doesn't drop a seat.
If you pull the cylinders off you will have to replace the rings. You will also measure the pistons and if they are too worn on the ring lands, or the skirts are too collapsed, or the top of the piston is scuffed they will have to be replaced. So here is the deal. Think over carefully how far into this engine you want to go time wise and cost. I agree with Gary on this but be advised that things can go downhill like the plumber who goes to replace a rubber washer but has to replace the faucet which requires new hoses which requires new stubs so he tears into the wall but it is iron pipes...…… _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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orwell84 Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2007 Posts: 2528 Location: Plattsburgh, New York
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Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 5:46 pm Post subject: Re: Help KentPS get back on the road? |
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I've heard it called shipwright's disease. One of the cleats is rusty so you replace it with a nice brass cleat, the deck it's attached to is a little spongey so that gets fixed too but while doing it you find, well you get the idea. I almost bought a small sailboat once until it occurred to me that it would be like a floating bus. |
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aeromech Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006 Posts: 16927 Location: San Diego, California
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Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 5:53 pm Post subject: Re: Help KentPS get back on the road? |
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It’s true. You open a can of worms. So if the budget only allows a quick repair and your time is free and you don’t want reliability as much as saving money, then fix what you have to but be aware that next years trip might end the same way. Not sure if your bus is 1976 or a 1973 but if you don’t need smog I’d convert to an 2L type one. That’s a whole new discussion _________________ Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound |
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