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Help me! New rebuild. Low oil pressure. SOLVED!!!
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VW_Jimbo Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 1:05 pm    Post subject: Help me! New rebuild. Low oil pressure. SOLVED!!! Reply with quote

I just finished a 2125 type1 engine build. I have very low oil pressure at idle which I cannot remedy.

Edit: Thought that I should add some engine details.
So, my current build.

Case is a late style universal case, 3rd cut. No engine code anywhere to be found. Found it here on tS, already clearanced, well almost completely clearanced for a stroker crankshaft. Found out, after purchase that it had already had the HVX modifications completed on it. It came to me with no studs present anywhere. I did not know that one, and probably would not go through that again. I tapped it for full throw, plugged the output of the oil pump, and installed a new Cb performance pick up tube!

Crankshaft is an AA 80mm 4140, VW journals, with 8 dowels
Camshaft is an Engle W110 with an ACN camshaft gear.
Engle stock lifters, modified with the HVX grooves.
Silverline bearings at the crank (std, std thrust), cam (std, double thrust), and rods (std)
Cb Performance 5.4" H beam rods with ARP bolts
Shadex 26mm oil pump, plugged by me with an Empi full flow cover, blue printed.
Remote oil filter. Wix 51515R
Silicon red rear main seal.
AA lightened flywheel.
Scat 40mm Chromolly Gland bolt
Kennedy Stage1 pressure plate with ridgid disc.
AA 92mm Thickwall M piston and cylinder kit.
AA500 heads. 42 x 37.5, their stage 2 port and polish. Mini wedge port, hardened keepers, and dual high rev springs.
Set of Empi cut to lenght chromolly push rods from several years back. Cut them to lenght after setting up the geometry.
AA 1.25 chromolly rockers
Pertronics distributor
Bosch blue coil and wires
NGK plugs
Dual 44 Webers with ported manifolds, current mains are 135, F11 tubes, idles? vents?
Dog house oil cooler with the latest Empi 36hp fan shroud. I installed flaps into the shroud. Connected to a stock thermostat.
Running 5-30W dyno oil.
1-1/2 quart sump.
Originally set at 8.7 compression ratio. Second time bumped up to 9.1
Dynamically balanced by Brother's in Ontario. They also balanced the first set of P&Cs.
I balanced the second set and verified the rods.


Engine has a New Shadex oil pump 26mm. 1-1/2 deep sump installed. Oil pick up tube was extended to 13mm above the inside bottom of sump screen. I tapped and plugged the oil pump output and the case. I tapped into the main oil galley, as I have a dozen times. I have a remote filter, mounted under the drivers rear fender. The oil filter is a WIX 5151R. I originally poured in 30wt dyno oil and ran the engine. I check for oil leaks and the idiot light before breaking the cam in. Broke the cam in at 3000rpms for 20 minutes. Shut it down. Let er cool off. Changed the oil (dyno 30 weight) and started to set some basics. That’s when it started. The oil pressure light came on - solid!

I figured it may be the aftermarket oil relief springs, so I exchanged them both for stock springs. I noted no difference. I then changed out the relief pistons (maybe). Nope no difference.

Shut it done. Let it cool off and let me think. Threaded my oil pressure gauge into the hole and measured low - zero - oil pressure at idle.

Car has sat for a week, while I think and go back through it all. I can not come up with anything. This morning I changed the oil to 20-50 and the pressure improved but it is not steady at idle. Check out this video, the issue is really obvious starting at 2:08. But before then I run the engine up to 2900 and get around 30psi, engine at normal temperature. That looks good to me in my experience, but I am not very well schooled in modified VW engine lubrication systems. So I am asking for help.

I am missing something or my case has an internal issue! I have driven it around the block, maybe a mile round trip. Runs awesome, but coming to a complete stop, engine rpms get to idle (875rpm), the idiot light shines brightly. Off idle and running down the road, no light, no noise. Engine seems strong and eager. I just want to mash the pedalbut the oil pressure is stopping me.

Here’s a short video of it in the garage.

Link

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Last edited by VW_Jimbo on Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:30 pm; edited 5 times in total
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modok
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 2:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Help me! New rebuild. Low oil pressure. Reply with quote

Low pressure at idle is usually
-Worn lifter bores
-Oil pump clearances too loose
-rear oil plunger too loose in bore
-internal leaks due to spread case or loose oil pump, ect.

I don't think it would be a problem on the suction side of the pump.
A leak or restriction there shows up as if you lose pressure around a turn or at high RPM it will take several seconds to recover again.
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 2:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Help me! New rebuild. Low oil pressure. Reply with quote

When you installed the pick up extension for the sump, is it welded on, or clamped?
Looks like the pump is aerating due to suction side leak.
Other possibility is that the oil relief piston is hanging open slightly.
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esde
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 3:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Help me! New rebuild. Low oil pressure. Reply with quote

pump gear spinning on the drive shaft?
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 3:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Help me! New rebuild. Low oil pressure. Reply with quote

1st of all this engine sounds to me like it's running on 3 cylinders!
You should not need 20W 50W oil I would not run that. It must be something wrong though a new engine full flowed should produce 20 lbs at idle and 40 cold even with lighter oil mine do.
I am not sold on sumps! If the pick-up is removable it would be easy to remove the whole sump and see what that does.
One thing that would cause no oil pressure is if the remote filter adaptor is backward IN-OUT switched. That would reduce the flow or stop it all together but in your case, it's just reducing the flow.



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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 3:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Help me! New rebuild. Low oil pressure. Reply with quote

pickup tube sucking air is another one.

So is the strainer being sucked to the bottom of the pickup tube (seen it a few times, with the tube too long)
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 3:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Help me! New rebuild. Low oil pressure. Reply with quote

Thank you all for replying, as I have beat my head against my tool box for a week.

So, lifter bores were a snug fit, just like every other vw engine I have assembled. This case came to me with the HVX mods already completed on it. I am suspect of those. I did groove my Scat lifters as per the HVX article.

The oil pump is a brand new 26mm Shadek that I measured. Everything was within limits. I did lightly surface the pump to tighten up that gap, but if anything that should have helped.

Rear oil plunger was suspect. I dropped the sump and removed it. I did have new empi springs in both the front and rear piston bores. I was suspect of those and installed an old VW set I had laying around. It did raise the pressure fractionally, but nothing grand.

Internal leaks. Yes, that is what I was hoping not to read.


The pick up tube is welded together. However, I clamped on a short section of tubing (it seemed like it needed another 1/4 of an inch, to get it to the stock 9/16" I know. Like the picture.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I agree that it does not seem like a suction side issue.

The pump gear idea is one I considered. I purchased a new 30mm pump on Friday, because of that thought, plus the HVX mods coupled with the external filter, I was thinking more volume may be the root issue. However, I am hesitant to change to a 30mm pump. I do not want to create another problem.

I agree that it sounds like it may be running on three cylinders. But that would not account for the low oil pressure swings. It would be low but not missing at times. I think my carbs sat a little too long and need a decent cleaning, but that is back burner till I get the oil pressure steady and comfortable.

I agree the 20 50 was to see what would happen. I started off with straight 30 and would not get any pressure reading at idle. After weighing out the options, I poured the 20-50 in it today and am preplexed at the response of the gauge.

I have triple checked that remote filter hose routing. From the cover of the pump to the "in" on the filter housing, filter housing out to the case front galley plug behind the pulley tin.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I set the new tube 9/16 off of the bottom of the sump, just like a stock case, flat cut on the tube.

Thank you all! Keep them coming, please!

I am going out and exchanging the 26mm pump for a CB performance full flowed 30mm pump. Lets see what happens, cause it just does not make sense to me! That 30mm should increase the pressure, but hopefully not make the plunger bypass the cooler. One step at a time!
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There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!

TDCTDI wrote:
Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look.


67rustavenger wrote:
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 4:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Help me! New rebuild. Low oil pressure. Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:
pickup tube sucking air is another one.

So is the strainer being sucked to the bottom of the pickup tube (seen it a few times, with the tube too long)


I have seen that one time. Not in this case. I have fluctuating pressure at idle 0 - 10psi. But off idle, measures good. No missing pressure, no excessive pressure. I would think if it sucked the sump up, it would do it on the higher rpm end. At 6000rpm I have no issue. Only under 1000rpm.
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There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!

TDCTDI wrote:
Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look.


67rustavenger wrote:
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 4:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Help me! New rebuild. Low oil pressure. Reply with quote

After watching the vid.........actually it DOES look like a problem on the suction end, because the pressure is all over the place.
Like it sucks a bubble, and takes a long time to recover.

The pickup tube assembly is brazed....what would happen if you welded on it and melted the braze? I don't know. Shocked I use solder.

If you put in an extra quart of oil, maybe it will cover the leak? Easy to try.

By the fit of the plunger.....I mean the actual size of it. It seals on the side, so you need a snug fit in the bore. Bore was originally .630, and the plunger .628
Old plungers may be worn smaller, and there are aftermarket ones out there that are WAY too small. A few times I made a new plunger .001 or .002 oversize to cheat.....which may be playing with fire, but if it moves smoothly in there, should work.
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 4:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Help me! New rebuild. Low oil pressure. Reply with quote

you also have to consider the press fit of the pickup tube in the case. They are often loose there.
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 5:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Help me! New rebuild. Low oil pressure. Reply with quote

Ok one more for you. Check the pump depth in the case, if the pump does not sit deep enough in the case it leaves a very small sliver of the pick up galley exposed and pulls air. I've seen this many times, particularly with the as41 Brazilian cases.
If that is the problem it can be remedied by machining the backside of the pump flange.
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 8:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Help me! New rebuild. Low oil pressure. Reply with quote

If its a problem on the suction side, you can confirm that by overfilling the engine. Fill it full enough that the pickup is completely submerged, this is when oil starts coming through the pushrod tubes into the heads..
run it for a few minutes and see if you have pressure. It's a waste of oil, but will tell you if you're sucking air.
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 10:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Help me! New rebuild. Low oil pressure. Reply with quote

Also, theres different thickness gaskets for oil pump cover, use the thinnest gasket.
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 10:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Help me! New rebuild. Low oil pressure. Reply with quote

I checked the pick up tube when I had the case apart. It seemed solid. Never ever tested one and did not give it a second thought.

So, I swapped the 26mm pump with the Empi steel cover for a Cb performance 30mm full flow pump with cover. Big difference in pressure. Engine still has the 20-50 in it, so tomorrow I will go back to 30wt and measure what happens.


Link


Looks like I got 20psi at idle after the pump install. Increases to about 60 around 3000 rpms, with no lapses in the pressure supply!

So, it was late when I wrapped it up. Will run the engine tomorrow and start settings the basics again. Seems that cylinder number two is not receiving fuel, so most probably a good cleaning of the carbs.

Maybe I will get some time on it tomorrow.
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 4:48 am    Post subject: Re: Help me! New rebuild. Low oil pressure. Reply with quote

Is it a deep dish cam or flat?

I'm sure you would have checked this, but obviously a flat cam pump will fit in a deep dished cam, and I've pulled apart many failed engines that have had this, the pump turns some of the time, and of course more when at higher rpm, also masked some because of thicker oil then once the pump has worn enough of a slot in the cam barely contacts at all.

Either that or the 26mm pump if it is truly for a deep dished cam sometimes doesn't have the shaft in the gear pushed through far enough which also acts like the above, I've seen 3 brazilian 26mm like that, never seen it with the 30mm for some reason.
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 6:24 am    Post subject: Re: Help me! New rebuild. Low oil pressure. Reply with quote

Leave the 20w-50 until afteryou drive it, you want to see what the oil psi is when up to full temp. Something still seems odd with the pressure the way it stalls for a moment going up, then dips at idle and recovers.
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 7:22 am    Post subject: Re: Help me! New rebuild. Low oil pressure. Reply with quote

Greg Ward wrote:
Is it a deep dish cam or flat?

I'm sure you would have checked this, but obviously a flat cam pump will fit in a deep dished cam, and I've pulled apart many failed engines that have had this, the pump turns some of the time, and of course more when at higher rpm, also masked some because of thicker oil then once the pump has worn enough of a slot in the cam barely contacts at all.

Either that or the 26mm pump if it is truly for a deep dished cam sometimes doesn't have the shaft in the gear pushed through far enough which also acts like the above, I've seen 3 brazilian 26mm like that, never seen it with the 30mm for some reason.


I checked the cam with the pump when the case was split. I could see the tab was fully engaged with the camshaft, when fully inserted into the case. But I am not perfect. My eyes are not what they were 25 years ago, the last time I built an engine.

I am really certain I have the correct pump, although now I am wanting to double check. I am running an Engle 110 cam. It has three allen head bolts that came with the gear. I would call that a flat gear, but maybe I am misinformed on high performance parts.

Currently it is sitting in the garage with the 30mm installed. Going to get up and get some breakfast. Then go for a walk on the beach with the wife, Sunday tradition which I love! Then, I will adjust the valves, finally, since the engine got to run for a little while yesterday. Then we will see what happens!

Thanks you!
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 7:25 am    Post subject: Re: Help me! New rebuild. Low oil pressure. Reply with quote

3 bolt is flat cam, you have it right.
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 7:33 am    Post subject: Re: Help me! New rebuild. Low oil pressure. Reply with quote

SRP1 wrote:
Leave the 20w-50 until afteryou drive it, you want to see what the oil psi is when up to full temp. Something still seems odd with the pressure the way it stalls for a moment going up, then dips at idle and recovers.


I agree. I was going to adjust the valves first off, then drive it around a little bit.

I have never had to measure the oil pressure on a vw engine before. My gauges were purchased for diagnosing automatic tranny drivability issues. I know those needle flucuations. Oil pressure on a modified air cooled engine is beyond my experience until now!

I was wondering more about the dip at idle. It seemed odd that it would be there, unless the oil now is so thick, it activates the relief valve in some way. Again, learning as I go on this one. Any and all input is great. We will figure this out!
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TDCTDI wrote:
Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look.


67rustavenger wrote:
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 7:40 am    Post subject: Re: Help me! New rebuild. Low oil pressure. Reply with quote

SRP1 wrote:
3 bolt is flat cam, you have it right.


Thank you for responding so quickly with that! I really am second guessing EVERYTHING!

I had a dream last night that I did not torque the number 2 rod bearing to its final torque. I am now laying here waking up, scratching my head and second guessing myself. I know I built the crank up before dropping into the case. I double checked the rods before installing the pistons, but I am still wondering, did I miss a step. Sometimes my mind wanders!
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Jimbo

There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!

TDCTDI wrote:
Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look.


67rustavenger wrote:
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! Smile
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