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What vacuum advance for 1959
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binky13
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 1:41 am    Post subject: What vacuum advance for 1959 Reply with quote

I just dragged my 59 beetle home, the P.O. put an 009 on it and left the vac advance line open on the 28 pci. What distributor mates best with this carb? Thanks in advance. This is my oldest bug and first single port I've owned
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 4:14 am    Post subject: Re: What vacuum advance for 1959 Reply with quote

The '59 bug came with the 36hp engine from the factory. If that is the engine you've got (not a later 40hp, or 1300, 1500 or 1600), then either of the following distributors are correct for a 36hp: Bosch part number VJU 4 BR8/1 or VJUR 4 BR8/1.

The 28 pci carb is the factory correct carb for the 36hp engine, and this carb works best with the above distributors.

If running a 009 distributor that should be paired with the later 28 pict or 28 pict - 1 carb.
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 4:44 am    Post subject: Re: What vacuum advance for 1959 Reply with quote

A 59 Beetle should have a VJU4BR8.

The 009 is aftermarket and was never used from the factory in any VW.

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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 3:02 pm    Post subject: Re: What vacuum advance for 1959 Reply with quote

You could also run a 0 231 115 040 which was the later factory replacement for the VJU(R) 4 BR 8. The /1 in the part number can be dispensed with they were rarely if ever placed on the id tag.

Being a mechanical advance only distributor the 009 can be run with any carburetor including the 28PCI currently installed. The vacuum line should be removed and plugged at the carburetor.
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 4:34 pm    Post subject: Re: What vacuum advance for 1959 Reply with quote

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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 2:43 am    Post subject: Re: What vacuum advance for 1959 Reply with quote

What's your engine code and what's the carburetors part number (if you can find it at all) ?


Model year '59:

VJU 4 BR 8 was last used in model year '58
VJUR 4 BR 8 was used since August '58 (start of model year '59) and would be correct.
ZV JUR 4 R 1 (Bosch 0 231 137 001) was used in a small quantity of 5000 units during model year '59 from engine 3521904 up to 3526905. If you can't find it, I guess nobody will ever realize, if you use the VJUR 4 BR 8 instead.

The replacement for all of them was the 0 231 115 040, which was released for production in July '62
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 3:26 am    Post subject: Re: What vacuum advance for 1959 Reply with quote

Is it the correct engine? If it’s a larger engine you may want to swap out carbs as well. Does it even run? If not are you rebuilding it to stock or going larger? No use spending good cash if you’re going to replace it all anyways.
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 6:19 pm    Post subject: Re: What vacuum advance for 1959 Reply with quote

From the original post I took it to be a 28 PCI with the hard vacuum line left in place.
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 6:52 pm    Post subject: Re: What vacuum advance for 1959 Reply with quote

mr. lang wrote:
What's your engine code and what's the carburetors part number (if you can find it at all) ?


Model year '59:

VJU 4 BR 8 was last used in model year '58
VJUR 4 BR 8 was used since August '58 (start of model year '59) and would be correct.
ZV JUR 4 R 1 (Bosch 0 231 137 001) was used in a small quantity of 5000 units during model year '59 from engine 3521904 up to 3526905. If you can't find it, I guess nobody will ever realize, if you use the VJUR 4 BR 8 instead.

The replacement for all of them was the 0 231 115 040, which was released for production in July '62


Hi Mr. Lang,pretty sure I can produce physical evidence that the VJU and VJUR were produced simultaniously starting in the late 1950's. The difference between the two is the the R badged distributors came with the noise surpressing resistor inside the rotor from the factory. Most earlier cars did not plan on having a radio installed so the non R was more common.

It's also my understanding that the ZV/JUR 4 R 1 and the later ZV/PAU 4 R 1 were only installed on Kharmann Ghia. The Ghia's seemed to get a lot of trial parts many had a short line life but a few became standard assembly line parts for the Beetle and Bus. The Truly oddball ZV/JUR 4 R 1 with a condenser that is riveted to the exterior body.

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and the next in line the ZV/PAU 4 R 1 on the left note that both of these had screw in vacuum lines, the ZV/PAU being a very short hard line:

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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 7:45 pm    Post subject: Re: What vacuum advance for 1959 Reply with quote

ok, so using the exactly 50 VJU(R) 4 BR 8 distributors from my core pile I can produce the following data:

45 x VJU 4 BR 8
5 x VJUR 4 BR 8

There are at least three later VJU 4 BR 8 (could be more)
1 x February 1960
2 x April 1960

The VJUR 4 BR 8 are dated:

February 1959
August 1959
september 1959
December 1959
the fifth had no discernible date stamp

I know that I have seen some early Porsche distributors that are R's.
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 2:00 am    Post subject: Re: What vacuum advance for 1959 Reply with quote

Tim, thanks for your explanations.
I did sleuth some more and will try to explain.


ZV/JUR 4 R 1
I've found the information about the ZV/JUR 4 R 1 in the technical bulletin M1
'60 page 3 row "24 February 1959" about the beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/techbulletins/m1/60_page3.jpg
and page 4 row "6 August 1959" about the Karmann Ghia
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/techbulletins/m1/60_page4.jpg

also listed in '64 page 4
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

and '66 page 3
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/techbulletins/m1/66_page3.jpg

with the repeated listing in 3 technical bulletins, it might be no mistake by VW
I don't know exactly, what V3521904 does mean, but could be the engine number

I found out, what the replacement distributor for the ZV/JUR 4 R 1 was:
it's not the VJUR 4 BR 8
based on the source:
M1 '60 it's the ZV PAU 4 R 2 mk (interesting side note about to re-index the drive shaft in those bulletins)
M1 '64 it's the ZV PAU 4 R 6 mk (same side note about to re-index the drive shaft)
M1 '66 it's the VW 315 905 205 (Bosch 0 231 137 015) (same side note about to re-index the drive shaft)
Bosch replacement list from the '80s it's the Bosch 0 231 137 031 (VW 315 905 205 B) (not written, but should be re-indexed too, since it's the replacement for the for ZV PAU 4 R 2 mk, ZV PAU 4 R 6 and 0 231 137 015)

While it's listed in the VW literature, it's not listed in the Bosch service listings (see below)


VJU(R) 4 BR 8
This is a snipped from the August '60 Bosch service list
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

The Bosch service lists were released every model year and do represent the closest list you can get of original parts used. No part numbers or any other modifications done to the list like they did on later parts lists.
But it's possible, that they contain information about a future release which then did not went into production (like the ZV/PAU 4 R 3 mk).

That's why I was not sure, if the information given about the VJU 4 BR 8 mk (used since February '60) was correct.
I think it is, but I did not pay attention to the side note about the resistance ignition cables.

until June '58: VJU 4 BR 8 mk
July '58 till January '60: VJUR 4 BR 8 mk
since February '60: VJU 4 BR 8 mk again, but with resistor ignition cables

This would perfectly fit with the date stamps on your distributors. Does this make sense ?


I've tried to find some more information about the resistor ignition cables but with no success. I think I read, that they were very brittle and were replaced by many car owners.

I'm not sure, but it seems, that with the beginning of Model year '59 they installed some kind of noise reduction resistor the one or the other way.
Not necessary because of an installed radio, I think it has more to do with global EMC regulations.


Interesting, that the ZV/JUR 4 R 1 does show up in the beetle VW list, but not in the beetle Bosch service list.

Karmann Ghia list:
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 7:07 am    Post subject: Re: What vacuum advance for 1959 Reply with quote

Thanks for the clarifications. The original poster is probably wondering what he's gotten us into Razz

Do you know anything about distributor VJ 4 BR 20? for post office vehicles listed above? I've not seen that one yet?
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 11:10 am    Post subject: Re: What vacuum advance for 1959 Reply with quote

Is this a sticky somewhere? Really good info.

Don
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 1:10 am    Post subject: Re: What vacuum advance for 1959 Reply with quote

To sum it up for the 1200 engine with 30 BHP for model year '59 and '60:

July '58 --> 24. February '59, engine 3521903: VJUR 4 BR 8
24. February '59, engine 3521904 --> engine 3526903: ZV JUR 4 R 1
engine 3526904 --> February '60: VJUR 4 BR 8
February '60 --> September '60, engine 3919979: VJU 4 BR 8 with resistor ignition cables

As an additional information: There were two versions of the VJU 4 BR 8. The one for model year '55 (31. August '54 till 4. August '55) and the other after that.
According to the workshop manual, they have two different curves, so a VJU 4 BR 8 with a date code after August '55 should be used.


I think, this could be correct now.
I wish there would be a table function for the posts. Would make it much clearer.
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Last edited by mr. lang on Thu May 24, 2018 1:51 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 1:34 am    Post subject: Re: What vacuum advance for 1959 Reply with quote

tasb wrote:
Do you know anything about distributor VJ 4 BR 20? for post office vehicles listed above? I've not seen that one yet?


This is what I found out:

The VJ 4 BR 20 was introduced in September '57 and was used till August '64
Then I lost trace about it's usage, so could be possible, that it was also used after August '64.
It was fitted on the 1200 30 BHP as well as on the 1200 34 BHP engines.
Part # 111 905 205 G

In August '60 Bosch introduced the ZV/PAU 4 R 3 to replace the VJ 4 BR 20, but this distributor never went into production, so they continued with the usage of VJ 4 BR 20.
Both were for post office vehicles only (but not for the Fridolin, type 147, which got the standard beetle distributors).

Replacement was the 0 231 129 025, part # 111 905 205 P, released for production in May '65


EDIT: Just learned more about the Fridolin, type 147, which was introduced in August '64.
According the very slim type 147 parts catalog, the Fridolin did get the standard beetle distributor.

So my wild guess is, that there was no usage of the VJ 4 BR 20 after August '64 and was therefore not produced any longer.
I crossed out the above line.


EDIT2: some additional information about the VJ 4 BR 20

These were the variations:
VJ 4 BR 20 -> got the later Bosch # 0 231 110 028, maybe not for VW
VJ 4 BR 20 mk -> got the later Bosch # 0 231 110 029 and the only one with a VW # 111 905 205 G
VJ 4 BR 20/1 mk -> got the later Bosch # 0 231 110 032, maybe not for VW

Same wear-parts as VJ 4 BR 8

No VJR 4 BR 20 (resistor) version available
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 10:08 pm    Post subject: Re: What vacuum advance for 1959 Reply with quote

Very interesting, I've never come across any of these of course, being here in the states.

The reader should keep in mind that Bosch changed their part numbering systems in mid-1965. Thus a VJ 4 BR 25 is the same as a 0 231 129 010, for example.
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