Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
Master Series folks need your help
Page: 1, 2  Next
Forum Index -> Body/Paint Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
mas00
Samba Member


Joined: February 08, 2016
Posts: 183
Location: Los Angeles/Texas
mas00 is offline 

PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 9:34 am    Post subject: Master Series folks need your help Reply with quote

I had my first (small) experience with master series primer yesterday. Lucky it was small because not sure what would've happened.

So I opened the can of primer to put some in my gas tank to seal it. Before I had let some vinegar sit in it for about 2 weeks to get a whole bunch of rust out. When I cleaned it out I put baking soda (the correct kind) to stop flash rust in it. After I let it dry it still started to flash rust so then I proceed to dump prep & etch which was cut with water 1-3. I filled up the tank and let it sit for about 30-45 minutes. I then dumped it out and let it dry and it STILL started to flash rust so then my last hope was I put some Master Series Silver inside. The label says it will seal gas tanks.

I had say about more than 1/2 of the can left of silver so I put a piece of plastic in-between the lid and the can so it wouldn't seal shut and I hammered the lid down shut tight. About 15 minutes later I was putting away some tools and the paint can was "throwing up" master series silver and it was all over the ground. It was oozing out the top of the can and when I opened the can it was basically almost all hard. This was about 15 minutes from the time I opened the can to basically me closing the lid and putting tools away.

I tried to save whatever paint I could and put in a glass jar, but I'm afraid it's going to need a ton of thinner to use. I woke up this morning and took a look inside the tank and there is a huge crack along the side where the paint didn't seal Mad

Now has anyone had any experience like this? Did I do something wrong in the prep or after care? Why would the can do this? Does MS silver primer harden THAT quick? I'm in Texas and the weather is currently high 80's-low 90's but it's also raining. I did this when it was not wet outside.

My next worry is I'm about to paint my chassis -primer and paint and I'm going to use a old school DeVilbiss gun about $250 gun. It's my uncle's and he said I probably shouldn't use it because master series silver hardened so quick that how could I possibly paint with it let alone put it in the gun with thinner and expect it to last for 2 coats? I either buy new primer/thinner/etc or he said I need to purchase a house paint gun.

Here is a photo of the gun. I'm in a quick crunch because from reviews I've heard no one having problems with MS and now I'm having second thoughts.
I'm getting my pans blasted this Sat morning and need to resolve this matter ASAP in order to be prepared to paint once blasting commences. I also don't want to go the POR-15 route which is why I purchase Master Series AG-111 Kit. Any help and advice would be great.

thanks in advance. Mas


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
theKbStockpiler
Samba Member


Joined: July 07, 2012
Posts: 2316
Location: Rust Belt
theKbStockpiler is offline 

PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 11:20 am    Post subject: Re: Master Series folks need your help Reply with quote

Powdered laundry detergent works well to prevent flash rust. Don't let vinegar or muriatic acid dry out. After you are done with a vinegar/muciratic acid session ,rinse with water and then brush on a high concentration of laundry detergent. Another way is to coat over vinegar/muriatic acid with straight phosphoric acid.. Just before the phosphoric acid dries out ,mist it with water and then let it dry. This will turn the phosphoric acid in to a black/flaky substance though.
_________________
My beetle is not competing with your beetle. I have the yellow beetle in my town. There is a red one, a green one ......
Use all safety devices including a mask.Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
mas00
Samba Member


Joined: February 08, 2016
Posts: 183
Location: Los Angeles/Texas
mas00 is offline 

PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 11:28 am    Post subject: Re: Master Series folks need your help Reply with quote

I'm more concerned about Master Series as you can read my dialogue from above I already explained my gas tank process there is no going back.

i didn't let it "dry" fully just dumped it out and then after poured laundry detergent and then poured prep & etch and neither worked!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
theKbStockpiler
Samba Member


Joined: July 07, 2012
Posts: 2316
Location: Rust Belt
theKbStockpiler is offline 

PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 11:53 am    Post subject: Re: Master Series folks need your help Reply with quote

The only time I get flash rust is when I let muriatic/vinegar dry out or I just rinse it with water. I only know about MasterSeries from what Rustbullet claims on their site so I can't help much with that.

Why don't you use a Harbor Freight Spay gun?
_________________
My beetle is not competing with your beetle. I have the yellow beetle in my town. There is a red one, a green one ......
Use all safety devices including a mask.Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
mas00
Samba Member


Joined: February 08, 2016
Posts: 183
Location: Los Angeles/Texas
mas00 is offline 

PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 12:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Master Series folks need your help Reply with quote

The DevBliss Gun is a tride and true gun. It's over 40 years old, in perfect condition. My Uncle's painted about 6 cars with it including a model T, Barracuda, and even a VW wiith it. It was $250-$300 when he bought it in the 60's.

I don't want to use the crap that HF puts out.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
67ctbug
Samba Member


Joined: January 24, 2016
Posts: 3619
Location: CT
67ctbug is offline 

PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 12:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Master Series folks need your help Reply with quote

mas00 wrote:
I don't want to use the crap that HF puts out.
The Harbor Freight purple gun is actually quite good. I bought one and it worked really well. It was my first time using a paint gun and the only problem was orange peel. Here, check it out, I made a video.


Link


The video will start when I start painting so you don't have to watch the unboxing.
_________________
'67 Beetle L41
'74 Westfalia
'69 Plymouth "Adam-12"
'63 Ragtop
'73 914
'73 Dodge W200
'72 Dodge Wrecker
Go Cubs!
World Series Champions 2016
KentPS wrote:
...or the PO envied the terrorists' bus in "Back to the Future". Laughing

mukluk wrote:
He's fine, just waiting for the dragon in winklepickers to move out of his lane.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
vwkirb
Samba Member


Joined: January 16, 2007
Posts: 812
Location: Athens, GA
vwkirb is offline 

PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 2:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Master Series folks need your help Reply with quote

The first thing you need to know about masterseries is that it is a MCU or Moisture Cured Urethane. So yes in the presence of atmospheric moisture it will cure quickly. If you trying to use some of a can, then the trick is to pour what you need then purge the can with argon or bloxygen or some other inert gas, this will greatly slow curing process in the can. If you don't its going to harden in the can.
_________________
Andrew Kirby
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
mas00
Samba Member


Joined: February 08, 2016
Posts: 183
Location: Los Angeles/Texas
mas00 is offline 

PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 3:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Master Series folks need your help Reply with quote

if it hardens in a can then how do you paint 2-3 coats? Because it takes half a day for 1 coat to dry?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
vwkirb
Samba Member


Joined: January 16, 2007
Posts: 812
Location: Athens, GA
vwkirb is offline 

PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 4:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Master Series folks need your help Reply with quote

You've got to make sure the can is closed and as I if you want it to really last you need to purge the can first.

You should be able to use a complete can within a couple of days. Sometimes adding thinner does help once it gets thicker, but if you don't close the can and get the air out then the product is ruined quickly.
_________________
Andrew Kirby
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Exaktaphile
Samba Member


Joined: October 01, 2010
Posts: 151

Exaktaphile is offline 

PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 5:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Master Series folks need your help Reply with quote

I'm on my 7th quart of MS so I have a little experience. I've got a few years of brushwork experience with lacquers/varnishes/shellacs so I don't bother spraying this stuff.

When you diluted your prep and etch 1:3 - is that one part prep to three parts water - and you filled the tank? That's an extreme dilution and I'm not sure the prep/etch would work at that weak of a concentration. It would have been best to plug holes, pour a bottle of full strength in and slosh the tank every few minutes to keep inside surfaces wet.

Cracked Paint. It sounds like you had a puddle or thick area in your tank and it cracked during curing. I suspect it needed more draining time.

Foamy Paint. How did you handle your paint? Did you shake before opening or stir it afterwards? Did you pour the whole can out and pour 1/2 back into the can? 15 minutes is an extremely long time to leave the lid off. Make sure you replace the lid immediately after you remove what you need. I think you're getting a reaction with the humidity.

I had two cans that were past their 6 month shelf life and starting to bulge. I turned one upside down so the pigment didn't settle. That was a mistake. When opened, it exploded and the lid hit the ceiling (it was actually low pressure but the surprise factor turned it into a real event)!
I believe the air pocket in the sealed can had just enough moisture to start a reaction in the can when I flipped it over. The paint had a foamy, gelatinous appearance but behaved normally after I added some reducer to thin it out. There was only a limited amount of humidity in a sealed can, maybe a few molecules. I didn't flip the second can and it didn't explode.

I rebottle MS into little 4 oz. jars because it helps avoid the long open time with a full can. A small jar starts to thicken within 5-10 minutes while I'm working. I add a few drops of thinner every few minutes as I'm working to keep the brush marks down. Without thinning, you'll be brushing mayonnaise at the bottom of a 4 oz. jar! When I'm in the groove and brushing out some decent thin coats, I'll usually find that the place I started is nearly dry to the touch.


Andrew is correct - purging your open container with Argon will greatly extend the life of the paint when you reseal it.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Last edited by Exaktaphile on Sun May 20, 2018 5:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
mas00
Samba Member


Joined: February 08, 2016
Posts: 183
Location: Los Angeles/Texas
mas00 is offline 

PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 5:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Master Series folks need your help Reply with quote

thanks for all the feedback.. and I think it's safe to say that dealing with MS or POR-15 is just not worth the hassle. Probably going to go the primer/enamel/hardener/reducer route as I won't have to b worrying about paint drying in 10 minutes. That's just nuts. I mean I don't understand how I'm suppose to paint my chassis with a gun front and back with 2 coats while this paint hardens in 10 minutes.

Unless anyone has good advice to not go that route? I'm pretty disappointed because I hear so much great things about MS, but I guess with my experience that's a real turn off.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
vwkirb
Samba Member


Joined: January 16, 2007
Posts: 812
Location: Athens, GA
vwkirb is offline 

PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 6:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Master Series folks need your help Reply with quote

While both of those products can be sprayed, they are intended to be brushed or rolled. I would think you have to thin MS significantly with the correct thinner (the one they suggest) to get it to spray correctly.
_________________
Andrew Kirby
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
67 Sunroof
Samba Member


Joined: February 22, 2014
Posts: 1836
Location: Salisbury, MD
67 Sunroof is offline 

PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 7:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Master Series folks need your help Reply with quote

Man I’ve used por15 many times as well as many on the forum with great success. When I open it I divide it into small containers like what was described. I paint a small section and before it is dry to the touch I hit it again and have had great success with it. It has held up very well for me.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Exaktaphile
Samba Member


Joined: October 01, 2010
Posts: 151

Exaktaphile is offline 

PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 7:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Master Series folks need your help Reply with quote

Mas, you can totally do it. Just remember you have to think about the humidity factor. Also, keep in mind that the stuff we're talking about drying in a few minutes is one thin layer - not a quart mixed and ready to shoot. You'll have more time than that when you're spraying. Read your instructions carefully about the pot life and don't be afraid to call Chuck. Depending on your gun settings/tip/pressure/reducer/thinner you're going to shoot that quart out in say 15/20 minutes.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Mike Fisher
Samba Member


Joined: January 30, 2006
Posts: 17963
Location: Eugene, OR
Mike Fisher is offline 

PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 10:55 am    Post subject: Re: Master Series folks need your help Reply with quote

Better to just brush MS on & thin a little when necessary. Idea
_________________
https://imgur.com/user/FisherSquareback/posts
69 FI/AT square Daily Driver
66 sunroof,67,70,71,71,71AT,72,72AT,73 Parts
two 57 oval ragtops sold
'68 Karmann Ghia sold

Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up you end up with a lot of scum on the top! - Russ_Wolfe/Edward Abbey
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Facebook Gallery Classifieds Feedback
c21darrel
Samba Member


Joined: January 22, 2009
Posts: 8206
Location: San Dimas
c21darrel is offline 

PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 12:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Master Series folks need your help Reply with quote

Concur with Exaktaphile.
There is def a learning curve with MS. I also pour off a new can into small glass jars. I tried 8 oz plastic water bottles thinking i could pop the lid and Presto!. no luck. Crying or Very sad
Ive gone thru about a half dozen cans of MS. Done 2 gas tanks. For tanks, I pour in undiluted phos acid from Home Depot and a length of heavy chain. Shake, shake shake, rinse with water. Air/sun/blow dry. Pour in less than a 1/3 qt of thinned MS (use their thinner) and tilt one way and the other all around. Pour out excess. Both came out perfect. one in use 6 years and still looks perfect inside. Dont give up, its good stuff.
_________________
GhiaBuild
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=481184
1967 DC build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=693583&highlight=67+dc
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
mas00
Samba Member


Joined: February 08, 2016
Posts: 183
Location: Los Angeles/Texas
mas00 is offline 

PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 4:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Master Series folks need your help Reply with quote

I did email chuck, he said if I'm that worries purchase a $15 gun from HF.

I'm more worried about painting the chassis at this point as the gas tank can wait til later. I called NAPA today and it's around $350 for paint/reducer/primer etc.

Does anyone know how many quarts (MS)it might take to paint the chassis front and back? Also where can I purchase Argon or Bloxygen in the store not online as I will paint this Sat after the dustless blasting.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
mas00
Samba Member


Joined: February 08, 2016
Posts: 183
Location: Los Angeles/Texas
mas00 is offline 

PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 3:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Master Series folks need your help Reply with quote

Mike Fisher wrote:
Better to just brush MS on & thin a little when necessary. Idea


Problem is I'm not just doing the chassis pans, but also front and back axle.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
SdAufKla
Samba Member


Joined: October 01, 2016
Posts: 103
Location: Piedmont Piney Woods, SC
SdAufKla is offline 

PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 4:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Master Series folks need your help Reply with quote

I used slightly over 1qt of POR-15 to get three coats on my chassis (a 1qt can and a 1pt can would have been plenty).

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I sprayed each coat using an HVLP gun from Northern Tools with a 1.4mm tip and needle. I thinned (reduced) the POR-15 as recommended at 5% with their thinner. Each coat used a little more than 1/2 liter of reduced paint, and I did the reduction right in the paint cup on the gun.

Curing time between coats was about 2 hours, at 70-80*F with moderate humidity. This time was measured from the time I started each coat to when I started the next one. I had plenty of time to clean up my gun between coats using hardware store xylene (as recommended by POR-15). Once the place I started the previous coat had cured to a "finger drag," I had plenty of time to mix up the next coat and start spraying.

The POR-15 cleaned up easily using the xylene. I don't think I could find so much as a single spot of paint left on my gun.

You can find more details and photos on page 3 of my resto thread here on TS:

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0

I was very pleased with the results and plan on using the POR-15 on the rims when I get around to painting them. For those, I'll follow up the last coat of POR-15 when it's reached the "finger drag"with the first top color coat.

I just followed the directions and procedures provided by POR-15. I'm a pretty experienced air brusher but this was the first time I ever used an HVLP gun. Spraying POR-15's not black magic or alchemy.

The three coats I sprayed on my chassis have cured hard as a rock, and during reassembly, I've dropped tools and spilt grease, oil and carburetor cleaner (which I used to clear out all of the control cable tubes) all over it. Nary a single chip or blemish in the POR-15 so far.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
vwoldbug
Samba Member


Joined: January 28, 2009
Posts: 1214
Location: Ohio
vwoldbug is offline 

PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 8:59 am    Post subject: Re: Master Series folks need your help Reply with quote

I've had good luck with Bill Hirsch miracle paint for floor pans and Hirsch gas tank sealer for the last 20 years . You can look it up on the Internet .
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Body/Paint All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page: 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2023, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB
Links to eBay or other vendor sites may be affiliate links where the site receives compensation.