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Low and mid range engine build.
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storm
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 12:51 pm    Post subject: Low and mid range engine build. Reply with quote

Hi all. As the tittle says, building an engine for a overdrive bus. Have 82 crank, thick wall 88 p&c, new case Weber 40's.rods are Rimco super rods stock. What I don't have are heads and camshaft. Need info to come up with right combination for low and midrange. Maximum speed 55-65 mph. So far I've used a stock 1600. Works up to third gear, but put in 4 th gear this engine does not like it. Starts to overheat. I know that might happen. But I wanted to drive the restored bus. Now for some serious engine help. Doghouse cooling and all tin and thermostat. Your recommendations please. Thanks.
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 1:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Low and mid range engine build. Reply with quote

storm wrote:
Hi all. As the tittle says, building an engine for a overdrive bus. Have 82 crank, thick wall 88 p&c, new case Weber 40's.rods are Rimco super rods stock. What I don't have are heads and camshaft. Need info to come up with right combination for low and midrange. Maximum speed 55-65 mph. So far I've used a stock 1600. Works up to third gear, but put in 4 th gear this engine does not like it. Starts to overheat. I know that might happen. But I wanted to drive the restored bus. Now for some serious engine help. Doghouse cooling and all tin and thermostat. Your recommendations please. Thanks.


You will get a lot of recco's here but a tried and true and easy to build combo would be the W110 and Mofoco 042's. Plenty of power and plenty of cooling.
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Dan Ruddock
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 1:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Low and mid range engine build. Reply with quote

What year is the bus. Do you want to run heater boxes?
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bugguy1967
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 1:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Low and mid range engine build. Reply with quote

Your 88mm pistons are for short strokes. Did you consult anyone before purchasing parts?

If you're fine with the extra width, choose a camshaft that operates in the power range where you'll do the majority of your driving. There are tons of options. Do you want to use ratio rockers or stock?

Some of my favorite low-end cams are the FK65 and FK7 from Engle. They both are designed to use 1.4 ratio rockers.

As for heads, the hot item right now is the Panchito 40x35.5 head from CB. They're attractively priced. Many heads will work well with an engine size like yours.

If you want to keep the pistons small for whatever reason, either buy some 90.5 B-height pistons or search through catalogs for a similarly-sized pistons with a better compression height for your stroke length. You want a 34mm or tighter. Yours are 39.5mm I think.

There's a Ford Modular piston that's 90.2mm. You'd have to machine circlip grooves in them and bore your cylinders for the correct clearance. In the end, you'd have a flat top, high quality Mahle/Clevite piston that's in tons of OEM engines.
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scubaseas
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 3:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Low and mid range engine build. Reply with quote

Assuming type 1 8V engine? In my 1970 Bus with a Freeway Flyer am running a 2021 (76X92TW), TF1 case, dual IDF 40's, Panchitos, Web218, CSP 1.5" Python exhaust (incl heat exchangers), 1.1:1 rockers, full flow etc. etc.. Runs fine. Plenty power and torque. Runs cool.

My old engine (stock 1667 with dual ICTs) also ran way hot after an overdrive 4th. The new motor does not run hot. I have a hard time getting it to run hot even in hot weather and at high speed.

One idea might be Panchitos with a .040" deck height and a CR for the Web218 cam of about 8.25:1. For mine that worked out to 61cc chambers.

Your exhaust will be your limiting factor. If you are using stock heat exchangers you won't be able to get much over about 100HP if I recall. A restricted exhaust may be part of your running hot issue.

A Web 86 and ratio rockers might be a consideration. I like my Web218 but might go to a Web86 or 86a and 1.4:1 rockers next time around. The Web218 has .460 lift at the cam and is not suitable for beehives with the valves I have now. But beehives with high lift rockers might ultimately last longer than what I have now. With the 218 I am limited to 1.25:1 rockers and dual springs. Single springs should run a bit cooler and the geometry of a ratio rocker to get lift looks better on paper at least. In reality you probably would have the motor out for something else before you ever wore out the valve guides with either cam/rocker set up.

Bad news is 82 crank in a Bus may not be a good idea. They tend to bend a lot on deceleration. When I did research for my build I could not find anyone that suggested an 82 crank in a Bus and several people voiced an opinion that it would be a bad idea. Also wise to use a standard weight flywheel.
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storm
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 3:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Low and mid range engine build. Reply with quote

Roy, a 110 cam would work, but those cams do not come in early. Also let me clarify with some more information. I do have 1 1/2 heat boxes with the heat sinks. My thick wall 88 are for stroke cranks. I am in favor of ratio rockers other than stock, but I would go up on the ratio if the cam can deliver. Also I've heard that lowering the lobe center to 105-107 on the cam would bring power in early. This bus '66 has been a real challenge for me with this transmission. It's a 3.88 w/ .82 4 gear 241/2 inch tire. I often thought to change the ring and pion to 4.125 X .89, but to fine a good transmission company to do it has been difficult. Bug guy 67, your response is appreciated. George
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 4:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Low and mid range engine build. Reply with quote

Now that you have answered the heater box question. Go with Steve tims stage one heads or panchitos, Webcam 86 with standard LC's it is mild enough to run standard LC's. CB 1.4 rockers and their light weight lifters. My beehive springs would top it off nicely. You will have about .477" lift with the Tims heads and I not exactly sure what it would be with the Panchitos. If you go with my springs don't cut the bosses for dual springs or buy heads with them already cut. That is how I would do it.


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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 6:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Low and mid range engine build. Reply with quote

storm wrote:
Roy, a 110 cam would work, but those cams do not come in early. Also let me clarify with some more information. I do have 1 1/2 heat boxes with the heat sinks. My thick wall 88 are for stroke cranks. I am in favor of ratio rockers other than stock, but I would go up on the ratio if the cam can deliver. Also I've heard that lowering the lobe center to 105-107 on the cam would bring power in early. This bus '66 has been a real challenge for me with this transmission. It's a 3.88 w/ .82 4 gear 241/2 inch tire. I often thought to change the ring and pion to 4.125 X .89, but to fine a good transmission company to do it has been difficult. Bug guy 67, your response is appreciated. George


I have a webcam 218 ground to 108 LC in a type 1, it comes in early and hard.
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 5:00 am    Post subject: Re: Low and mid range engine build. Reply with quote

I would go for a full flow oil system with an extra oil cooler. I found hot running with a T1 1641cc in a bus at 65-70mph, with a progressive carb amd a JK single quiet pack exhaust. Evertything else was stock.

If you bump up power over stock in a T1 in a bus it gets hot. Adding cooling helps.
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storm
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 7:04 am    Post subject: Re: Low and mid range engine build. Reply with quote

Storm back, ok your responses are appreciated. Here is my take for a low and mid-range engine. Change the 82 for a 78, 40x35.5 valves ( head manufactur not determine yet), 2256 Eagle cam on 107 LC, 1 1/2 exhaust w/ same size heat boxes, 8.8 cr 91 octant gas, stock rockers, 5.4 rods, Duel Weber IDFs 28-32 vents, full flow 26mm pump. doghouse fan housing w/thermostat. Here in Wisconsin it can be cool in early am in summer. Your thoughts, George
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 7:07 am    Post subject: Re: Low and mid range engine build. Reply with quote

storm wrote:
Roy, a 110 cam would work, but those cams do not come in early. Also let me clarify with some more information. I do have 1 1/2 heat boxes with the heat sinks. My thick wall 88 are for stroke cranks. I am in favor of ratio rockers other than stock, but I would go up on the ratio if the cam can deliver. Also I've heard that lowering the lobe center to 105-107 on the cam would bring power in early. This bus '66 has been a real challenge for me with this transmission. It's a 3.88 w/ .82 4 gear 241/2 inch tire. I often thought to change the ring and pion to 4.125 X .89, but to fine a good transmission company to do it has been difficult. Bug guy 67, your response is appreciated. George


Uh....that's like the worst trans combo ever for a Bus. I wouldn't even run that in a beetle. We can change that trans gearing for you, no problem. We run the 4.12 with .82 4th and it works great.

As for the cams, again, there are a million opinions and I would be happy to discuss. For heads though, it's not even a question. The 042's cool better than any other casting in the world and that is the one of the most important things for your bus.
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scubaseas
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 8:39 am    Post subject: Re: Low and mid range engine build. Reply with quote

Roy @ Mofoco wrote:
Quote:
4.12 with .82 4th and it works great.


X2. This is what I finally wound up with and its an improvement over the .89 4th. Long space between 3rd and 4th though. I had your set up and it definitely made the Bus run hotter than stock.

You can speed up the fan by using a 356 style generator pulley and a thicker belt (13mm or 1/2") if you still run hot or keep your ratio as is.

2256 Eagle has a lot of duration to it. CB had suggested a 2234 to me when I was researching my build which is very similar to yours. You will surely get a lot of opinions on cams here. All of which are both right and wrong. 2256 may not idle great at 300* duration and may not pull well at lower RPMs but I have no experience with it so really can't say for sure.

32 Vents for top end power, 28 if low end torque is more important. I prefer 32s in mine but then I flog it a lot and cruise at 65-70ish. I am also displacing more (2021cc versus 1898cc).

Your plan sounds great. You might want to add a 1.5 qt oil sump to it to allow the bigger oil pump to have oil on hard acceleration and on hard corners.
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 3:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Low and mid range engine build. Reply with quote

scuba seas, storm here Thanks for your input. I am going to change the gear ratios of that transmission, so I will have a better engine combo. Roy, from Mofoco has assured me that his company can change the gear ratios. This is convenient to me ,because Mofoco is in Wisconsin. This bus came from Western Texas where the land is mostly flat. I live in an area were we have hills 6 to 9 % grades. The present gearing is to tall. Maybe there is an engine combo out there, but I worry about over heating the heads and oil. More components to cool, coolers, etc. trying to compensate for a non-balance gear ratios limits engine choices. Now, who out there can give me some gear combinations. I thank everyone who chime is so far.
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 3:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Low and mid range engine build. Reply with quote

scubaseas wrote:
Roy @ Mofoco wrote:
Quote:
4.12 with .82 4th and it works great.

Assuming it is a straight axle. Itīll work in a split, but a W110 cam is too much. The engine will be out of its comfortzone on a regular cruise. Web 218/119 on 108 LC at the very most. I would recommend the CB 2239. With good heads like the Panchitos or similart it will bleed torque soon enough to pull the transmission really nice. Last year I built a 2160 around that cam. We were able to make the engine pull 150 Nm torque already at 2000 rpm climbing to 200 Nm at 3600 and 130 hp at about 5200. Very nice bus engine that hauls an MKP midi camper, even with the somewhat high ratio.


You can speed up the fan by using a 356 style generator pulley and a thicker belt (13mm or 1/2") if you still run hot or keep your ratio as is.
That would be a very good thing, along with a 6 3/4" lower pulley.
2256 Eagle has a lot of duration to it. CB had suggested a 2234 to me when I was researching my build which is very similar to yours. You will surely get a lot of opinions on cams here. All of which are both right and wrong. 2256 may not idle great at 300* duration and may not pull well at lower RPMs but I have no experience with it so really can't say for sure.

32 Vents for top end power, 28 if low end torque is more important. I prefer 32s in mine but then I flog it a lot and cruise at 65-70ish. I am also displacing more (2021cc versus 1898cc).
Itīll be just shy of 2 liter. 28 is not enough. it will zip off of the mains too early. 30 or 32 mm is the size for such an engine

Your plan sounds great. You might want to add a 1.5 qt oil sump to it to allow the bigger oil pump to have oil on hard acceleration and on hard corners.
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 9:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Low and mid range engine build. Reply with quote

Alstrup wrote:
Quote:
Itīll be just shy of 2 liter. 28 is not enough.

Mea Culpa. 30 or 32s then. Know anyone who has good venturis?

Had to google MKP midi camper. Neat pics at veterancamping.dk

storm you're welcome. Deck height, CR, timing and air/fual mixture all are big factors for hot running. Aim for .040" deck, CR per the cam manufacturer, tune for a/f ratio by wideband Good article at https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=293837&highlight=band+results Read all 96 pages.Rolling Eyes

I have a CB black Box and think it does well for the price. You can program your timing for where it needs to be. Simple and seems to be accurate.

This may be helpful for gear selection https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=466567&highlight=bus+gear+ratios
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