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bjrogers86auto Samba Member
Joined: March 26, 2009 Posts: 1375 Location: Halifax, N.S.
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Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 3:49 pm Post subject: Auto transmission mystery |
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Hey Samba folks, its been awhile since I have posted and was hoping for some insight.
I have an 86 auto, stock engine, stock trans cooler.
I have a situation where my ATF is over filling. My gear oil has gone down but I can't figure out how it can migrate to the AT side. If in fact this is whats happening.
Twice I have drained out the excess ATF side and added new ATF to the proper level. (yes I am aware how to check)
It seems this is the only logical explanation but my trans seems to be working fine.
I'm looking at getting a core rebuilt and an external cooler as well.
Any thoughts? experiences?
Thanks
Brian _________________ 86 Vanagon GL Westfalia 2.1
18 Nissan Frontier Pro 4X
19 Honda Civic Hatchback
A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day. Calvin and Hobbes. |
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tbd Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2015 Posts: 58 Location: Saint Paul, MN, USA
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Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 6:17 pm Post subject: Re: Auto transmission mystery |
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I haven't done a search but if I recall correctly the gear oil can migrate to the transmission. If you have the stock cooler then it could be a leak there and you have coolant leaking into your transmission, but I would think that would be a noticeable contaminant in the atf you are extracting. |
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mikemtnbike Samba Member
Joined: March 26, 2015 Posts: 2794 Location: North Carolina
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markswagen Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2018 Posts: 1022 Location: san diego
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Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 7:16 am Post subject: Re: Auto transmission mystery |
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The excess you are draining out, clean and clear.
What's your coolant look like, I hope you are not in the beginning of a transmission cooler failure.
If you are getting dirty brown ATF when you drain it, yes it could be the diff oil.
I wouldn't wait regarding the transmission cooler, one of the first things I ask a new customer to change, if it's not been done already.
I use the smallcar performance cooler $180 + shipping, you can either join the feed and return cooler, coolant lines together, or change the hoses out foe the manual transmission hoses, that don't have the T offs in them. _________________ markswagen {mobile mechanic} san diego area all early VW's cared for.
619 201 0310 |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50332
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Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 8:32 am Post subject: Re: Auto transmission mystery |
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The seals between the automatic section and the final drive section need to be replaced every 150K miles or so or they will eventually fail and the oils will pump from one box to the other depending on which seal fails. This can happen slowly or suddenly. The ATF cooler can also fail and should be replaced with a air to oil cooler verses the water to oil cooler.
Do not keep driving your rig unless you want to foot the bill for the total rebuild or outright replacement of one or both boxes. When the fluids begin to mix failure is imminent.
Replacing the seals is not a super hard job, but requires attention to detail or you can screw up big time. |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17106 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 10:39 am Post subject: Re: Auto transmission mystery |
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They are referred to as back to back seals. You can use a piece of film negative to make sure you don't catch a lip going together. You will also need the O ring that goes around the outside of the auto section case and at least one paper seal. Check the manual for the job steps. _________________ ☮️ |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50332
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Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 10:51 am Post subject: Re: Auto transmission mystery |
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MarkWard wrote: |
They are referred to as back to back seals. You can use a piece of film negative to make sure you don't catch a lip going together. You will also need the O ring that goes around the outside of the auto section case and at least one paper seal. Check the manual for the job steps. |
There is the governor shaft seal and the inner pinion seal as well. It is the inner pinion seal that takes the most care to access. If you use the wrong tool to remove it, the tranny will never be right again. As the little check valve apparatus behind the seal can not easily be replaced after is has been mangled. You also have to make 100% sure you get the adjusting nuts for the side bearings right back where they were or the ring and pinion are going to have a greatly shortened life.
FWIW, I had a driver made for the governor shaft seal, which makes the seal a breeze to replace. |
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bjrogers86auto Samba Member
Joined: March 26, 2009 Posts: 1375 Location: Halifax, N.S.
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Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 11:50 am Post subject: Re: Auto transmission mystery |
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Thanks for the responses everyone.
To answer a few questions; the cooler is stock but replaced 10 years ago when I bought the van.
This is not coolant in the oil. The ATF is darker and my gear oil has been "disappearing" for awhile. Not much of a mystery now. I was under the understanding that it was unlikely gear oil would get into the ATF. I was wrong. I thought my gear oil was leaking outside but it turns out that's my crank seal. Yipee! The upside is I will get change the crank seal now...
This transmission was rebuilt but obviously not well. I have no recourse on that. Long story.
My guess is it will need a complete rebuild again. Find out next week.
Thanks,
Brian _________________ 86 Vanagon GL Westfalia 2.1
18 Nissan Frontier Pro 4X
19 Honda Civic Hatchback
A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day. Calvin and Hobbes. |
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bjrogers86auto Samba Member
Joined: March 26, 2009 Posts: 1375 Location: Halifax, N.S.
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Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 1:34 pm Post subject: Re: Auto transmission mystery |
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So here is even more info...
The transmission was rebuilt in 2011.
Summer of 2016 I had an "oil release" on a hot day under load. ATF but not clear where it came from. The gear oil was very low and ATF high. Added some gear oil and made it home.
Drained and changed filter and replaced ATF oil to proper level. Transmission always has worked the same.
2017-added some gear oil over the summer but not much. ATF fluid seemed ok.
2018-checked ATF and it was high again. Drained and replaced with new oil to proper level. Gear oil is down very slightly.
Still working and shifting normal.
Dropping it out next week and taking it to a different transmission shop.
Brian _________________ 86 Vanagon GL Westfalia 2.1
18 Nissan Frontier Pro 4X
19 Honda Civic Hatchback
A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day. Calvin and Hobbes. |
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bjrogers86auto Samba Member
Joined: March 26, 2009 Posts: 1375 Location: Halifax, N.S.
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Posted: Sat May 26, 2018 2:55 pm Post subject: Re: Auto transmission mystery |
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FAS oil cooler ordered and on the way! _________________ 86 Vanagon GL Westfalia 2.1
18 Nissan Frontier Pro 4X
19 Honda Civic Hatchback
A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day. Calvin and Hobbes. |
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bjrogers86auto Samba Member
Joined: March 26, 2009 Posts: 1375 Location: Halifax, N.S.
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Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:44 am Post subject: Re: Auto transmission mystery |
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Mystery solved!
Probably this way since rebuild in 2011. Back on the road soon!
Brian _________________ 86 Vanagon GL Westfalia 2.1
18 Nissan Frontier Pro 4X
19 Honda Civic Hatchback
A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day. Calvin and Hobbes. |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17106 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:51 am Post subject: Re: Auto transmission mystery |
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That is why I recommended using a piece of film negative to act as a sleeve to protect the inner lip upon assembly. The dealer had a tool, but a piece of film negative actually works better. You can not see if you damaged the seal upon assembly. _________________ ☮️ |
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bjrogers86auto Samba Member
Joined: March 26, 2009 Posts: 1375 Location: Halifax, N.S.
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Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:16 am Post subject: Re: Auto transmission mystery |
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The shop that did the last rebuild didn't do this one.
Great tip if I ever tackle one myself!
Thanks Mark,
Brian _________________ 86 Vanagon GL Westfalia 2.1
18 Nissan Frontier Pro 4X
19 Honda Civic Hatchback
A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day. Calvin and Hobbes. |
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